Advancing Accessibility Podcast: Episode 2

The second episode of our limited podcast series is live, with host Steve Saylor and award-winning journalist Grant Stoner as our guest.

Listen on Spotify, or watch on YouTube.

Transcript of Episode 2

Steve Saylor: (0:00:00):
Welcome to Advancing Accessibility, a podcast series focused on the great work done by individuals pushing for accessibility in the gaming industry and answering the question, what’s next? This show is brought to you by Player Research’s Advancing Accessibility. To find out more about what player research and this initiative, you can be able to go to the link in the show notes or to PlayerResearch.com I’m Steve Saylor, an accessibility consultant, content creator and host of this series, and in today’s episode, it’s all about the state of assistive technology in gaming. And my guest today is accessibility journalist and also accessibility advocate. And just a really good bud, Grant Stoner. Grant, how are you doing today?
Grant Stoner: (0:00:41):
I’m good. How are you?
Steve Saylor: (0:00:43):
I’m doing good. Thanks so much for being a part of the show. Yeah, we’re very excited to have you on, especially talking about assistive technology in, uh, and just how it’s kind of like from the past, the present and future that’s we’re going to be talking about today. But before we get into any of that, why don’t you tell us, like, a little bit about yourself?
Grant Stoner: (0:01:00):
Yeah. Um, I’m an accessibility journalist in the gaming industry. My articles, uh, it’s for the disabled perspective and how disabled players interact with the space as well as, um, uh, developer innovation. So a lot of my stories, I’ll go behind the scenes and interview developers about the tech they’re using to make their games accessible, um, innovations from previous titles or how they’re advancing accessibility throughout the years. Um, my work basically gives disabled players a microphone to express their concerns and to, uh, celebrate their wins and basically just have a voice in the industry. Um, and I’ve been doing it for five years now, I think, professionally.
Steve Saylor: (0:01:52):
Wow. Actually, yeah, I think you’re. I was just thinking myself, like, how long have I been doing this for? And I think it’s roughly about that long, like, yeah, at least like five. I mean, I’m going back as far as maybe 2017, but I mean, yeah, I think we kind of like started roughly around the same time, which was great. I love what you said about giving disabled voices a microphone, because oftentimes advocacy is very much that aspect. It’s it’s very much we’re advocating and like basically putting a microphone in front of folks who are doing the work and but also folks who, you know, that we need we need basically to create these games for and they need to be heard. Because oftentimes people with disabilities are kind of overlooked or made to look invisible. So I love that analogy. And I’m going to I’m going to use it in the future. I hope you’re okay with me stealing that because that’s a great line. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Um, so let’s kind of go even a little bit like further back into kind of, uh, a little bit of your history. Like what got you interested in gaming? Like when was it what was like the first sort of games that, uh, that you were interested in?
Grant Stoner: (0:02:56):
Um, I grew up with gaming. It’s been a staple in my life for as long as I can remember. Uh, my first vivid memory I have is, um, playing Super Nintendo. And my parents bedroom on like a, 16 inch the TV. Remember those tube TVs? Yeah, with the antenna. Yeah. And, uh, I was playing, uh, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2: Turtles in Time.
Steve Saylor: (0:03:28):
Ooh, that’s a great one to start off with. I love that.
Grant Stoner: (0:03:31):
And my grandma was playfully teasing me about how Michaelangelo wasn’t orange, because yellow is my favorite color. Always argue with her. Right now is yellow. Um, but I have played games since I was very young. My, um, uh, occupational therapist actually encouraged my parents to let me play games instead of, like, you know, don’t restrict them for several hours. Like, let him just go because it helped my hands. Mhm. Um, because of my disability, I’ve never been able to do physical activities, obviously. So I would just play games. I would interact with all my classmates, my family and other friends through gaming. And then as, um, I grew, I developed an interest in gaming as a career. And, um, I wasn’t able to be a developer because of my restrictions. So instead of turning to journalism.
Steve Saylor: (0:04:35):
I definitely.
Grant Stoner: (0:04:36):
Want to.
Steve Saylor: (0:04:37):
Yeah, I never want to put a pin in that one because, uh, because we’ll definitely get into that in a second. But I do want to actually kind of go back. You mentioned about, uh, it’s actually something I didn’t know about with regards to that. Video games were sort of recommended to you as far as, like, uh, as physical therapy. Um, what was it that like when you were kind of going through that and, uh, and doctors were sort of recommending it? What was sort of the, if you don’t mind me asking, like, kind of like the if you can talk about a little bit about your disability and what, um, you were, you were able to do and were not able to do and like, how did video games really help? Uh, you kind of like, develop as, you know, as you grew and as you grew older and, you know, and reflexes are starting to kind of change. And how did that sort of help and what did video games improve upon when you like, when you started and to when you, when you stopped doing physical therapy?
Grant Stoner: (0:05:28):
Um, so I have a neuromuscular disorder called spinal muscular atrophy type 2. There’s I believe five types. I think the fifth type was just revealed, a world premiere, um, several years ago. Um, but I have type 2, and it’s a progressive disability that, uh, weakens my muscles over time. Mhm. So I was young. My hand strength was significantly better than what it is now. Uh, my range of motion, my dexterity. So I was able to play, uh, different controllers like Super Nintendo, N64, uh, PS2, Gamecube, all those systems gameboys handhelds. Um, and then as I grew older, as my disability progressed, my hands, uh, began to atrophy more. Mhm. Um, so I relied on, uh, simplistic games or on handmade modifications, so that my brother famously taped a popsicle stick to my 360 controller. Because of the way my hand was shaped, I wasn’t able to reach the right trigger, so the popsicle stick wrapped around and laid on top of it. So I should just pull the stick and it would pull the trigger for me.
Steve Saylor: (0:06:57):
Oh, that’s a cool idea. Yeah. That’s great.
Grant Stoner: (0:07:00):
Yeah. Um, and then as I grew older and as studios released, uh, more inclusive designs and better features, um, I was no longer limited to what I was able to play. And since I’ve even transitioned transition to, uh, now I’m primarily a PC gamer, right? Because it’s just easier. Yeah. Um, and it has more options and settings from a system level. I gotcha. Yeah. But, uh, my evolution of gaming was dependent upon what studios were making to allow me to play their games.
Steve Saylor: (0:07:46):
Right? Yeah. Uh, and obviously, you know, as we both know, that kind of, uh, grew more and more complex as, as time went on. Uh, and I think even at a certain point, it became difficult for, for both of us. But, uh, what was sort of the like you said, you mentioned you got went into journalism because you didn’t think you could be a game dev at the time. Um, with the with going into journalism, was gaming journalism kind of something you were, you were wanting to do, or was it just journalism in general, or was it sort of like you saw that as a way to get in to like get your foot in the door, so to speak? Uh, even though you can barely use it, that was a joke, uh, to get into the industry, uh, as it were.
Grant Stoner: (0:08:28):
Um, so I actually wanted nothing to do with accessibility. My first thought was I had enough internalized ableism with myself. Sure. Um, so I wanted to do journalism, but not thought at all about my disability or even disabled communities. I want to just be a, you know, air quotes ”Normal game journalist” Mhm. Um, and then I was in college, I was writing for the student newspaper and my editor at the time, who is still to this day one my best friends was like, hey, I want you to review Nintendo Switch, but I want you to do an accessibility review because I don’t know, I’m just not publishing it. So I did it. And six months later, it won second place in the Keystone Press Awards, which is the, um, Pennsylvania statewide uh Journalism Award program. Uh, it won such a place for reviews.
Steve Saylor: (0:09:39):
Oh, so you already are an award winning journalist before you even got into this story. And yet you can you get, like, so humble about the fact that you’ve won, like, two big, huge accessibility journalism awards, but. All right. Fine. Okay. You know, just winning is just part of your your personality, I guess.
Grant Stoner: (0:09:57):
Um, yeah, I just from that moment on, I was like, oh, maybe there is a need and a desire for this kind of work, and worked through a lot of my own internal struggles with identity and who I wanted to be. Um, and then from there, it’s just that was it. I just kept writing about accessibility.
Steve Saylor: (0:10:25):
Was it like when you were going through that, that journey, a journey of figuring out, um, who you are with, with a disability, and also like writing about it for, uh, from a journalism standpoint. Is that what, uh, like when was sort of the, the, the turning point of like, yes. No, I think like advocating for accessibility and also being like advocating for accessibility within the journalist, like sort of the community, or at least on the gaming media side. When was that turning point for you to be like, yeah, okay, this is this is where I think I need to be.
Grant Stoner: (0:11:00):
Um, I my Nintendo Switch review, uh, a trigger. Um, I don’t know if he wants me to mention his name. I don’t think he’s been creating. But a creator designed a 3D printed one handed device for Nintendo Switch, where you could put both the Joy-Cons into this device and you could use it in one hand. And, um, this creation was written about everywhere, and then, uh, Polygon actually linked my Nintendo Switch review into their article talking about this device because, um, at the time he reached out to me on Twitter and asked me if this would work, I was like, I don’t think it can. But he still talked about how him reading my review and his own personal experiences is what drove him to make this device. And then that’s kind of when. I don’t know if it went viral, but like for me, it did. ‘Cause I was still in college. Um, and that was also like the moment I was like, oh my gosh, people around the world are interacting with this. It’s oh my gosh, just apparently people need this information. Um, and then I started doing, uh, consistent accessibility reviews. And my first ever interview story, uh, was with Ian Hamilton. Mhm. Uh, at college. I emailed Ian as a young student and then every year he said, yeah, sure. Um, it just it just kept growing from there. Just it just progressed into me realizing it was important and people need to read this information. And more importantly, um, it wasn’t about me. It was about everyone else. Mhm. Which I always set out to do. I don’t want my stories being about me. I want them to reflect the thousands, if not millions of others who need to have their voices heard.
Steve Saylor: (0:13:24):
Yeah, I think that’s the the thing about advocacy that, um, I think every advocate kind of goes through to a certain degree is that it is at first it’s your story, like it’s it, you know, it’s your first like you’re lived in experience. And that talking about it from that perspective is what is super, super important. And then over time, as you start to be, you know, be a part of the community in this space, you start to kind of realize or notice a lot more folks who are, you know, actually like doing the work and doing the things that you’ve been advocating for. And we start to kind of focus and like, you know, open the door for them to be like, hey, look at what these great folks are doing. And I think that, like what? Essentially what we both do in this space, whether it’s myself with like content creation and and streaming and also consulting, but then also like on your end when you’re advocating for and writing about this, the people behind the scenes and celebrating, but also, you know, in a sense, like calling out certain things that need to be called out because some of your articles have like sort of, uh, been that kind of, uh, like had a little bit of soapbox, but within but using that soapbox for other people to stand on. Uh, and you just and you’re just kind of like showcasing, um, what others have are, are feeling and talking about when you were, when you were kind of going through those kind of articles because of course, you know, we talk about accessibility and yes, it can be inspirational. It can be like so super positive, especially when you see studios making games that are extremely like amazing, like amazing for accessibility. And we love celebrating those. But um, when, when we do need to sort of advocate for, hey, we definitely need to see these kind of things change. Um, what kind of like what kind of when you are, when you see the feedback from, uh, from that, both from the developer side and on the on the sort of the just the public side. Um, what how how does that sort of, uh, like going back to when you were advocating for yourself? What what kind of feelings do you have when you’re, when you’re writing those kind of, uh, those kind of stories? Um, and, uh, and that you’re just you’re like, you’re just trying to advocate for, for, for people.
Grant Stoner: (0:15:44):
Um, at the end of the day, it’s not about my opinions on something because I’m with my friends. You know, I’m very opinionated. Um, but at the end of the day, when I’m writing, it’s not about what I think, unless it’s a review. If I’m doing a review, then it is, uh, all about the items. That’s the purpose of a review. It’s my opinion. But when I’m writing the features and interviews and even investigative reports, um, my purpose is to fully remove myself and make sure that the message that needs to be heard is heard either through developers or promoting these features or communities that were either celebrating them or critiquing them. Rightfully so, for a myriad of reasons. Um, it’s never I learned very quickly, very quickly, um, that my perspective is just a tiny drop compared to the millions of people who are experiencing, uh, games and the barriers that they encounter. So I try to never get frustrated with, I wouldn’t say this or I wouldn’t do this. It’s always this is the conversations I’ve had with these people. Here’s what they want. I will make sure to say exactly what they want.
Steve Saylor: (0:17:25):
Yeah, because at the end of the day, it’s like you want, you know, the the basically players to be able to play as, uh, as many games as possible, especially for disabled players. So, uh, I think that again, as you said earlier, holding up that microphone to them is, uh, is a great way to do it. And you do it so well, sir. So, uh, you know, it’s not about me. It’s about you, sir. But today, I mean, our topic is about advancing assistive technology in gaming and how we’re going to take a look at sort of the past and what we’re what we have currently have now and then looking into the future. So the first question I want to ask you, Grant, is what type of assistive technology do you use when playing games?
Grant Stoner: (0:20:37):
Yeah. Um, I use an Xbox Adaptive controller as well as, uh, roughly 11 switches from the Logitech Adaptive Gaming kit. Mhm. Um, and then two joysticks from Warfighter Engaged. Um, and then they’re, they design, uh, several third party buttons and sticks you can [unclear]. Um, I also use the PlayStation Access controller. Um, and then some of the left over buttons from the Adaptive Gaming kit are used with that. Um, and so I don’t use any specialized controllers. Mhm. Um, what I do is I pair the Xbox and PlayStation controllers with a standard Xbox and PlayStation controller. Okay, so the one hand, usually my left, is operating the adaptive equipment, and my other hand the right is on the standard controller, and it uses the face buttons to press buttons and everything.
Steve Saylor: (0:21:47):
Okay. Gotcha. So you basically. Yeah, that’s that’s what you only use an actual controller for, is just just the face buttons, correct? Yep. Okay. So how do you, uh, what do you use? Like you said, you have a few joysticks. Um, how do you sort of like, uh, be like, switch between because obviously there’s two joysticks on a regular controller. Um, like, how do you handle sort of like the movement and also the camera joysticks when you’re, when you’re playing games.
Grant Stoner: (0:22:13):
I can’t um, okay, I was younger, I used to be able to use both sticks with my hand. I also used a standard controller. Um, but since my disabilities progressed to the point, uh, that is that now I’m unable to use two sticks, so I usually heavily rely on, um, accessible designs or settings in games to either remove those barriers or alleviate them in some function. So, uh, for example, I rely on, uh, single stick movement, okay. Which basically means if I’m moving my character with the left stick, the camera also follows. Mhm. Um, some games do that really well. Uh, the last ones I believe, as an option. Um. Kingdom Hearts. Yeah. That’s usually how the movement is. And all the games have released, um, Star Wars and, uh, the Jedi series. Oh, they also have some decent movement. Um, and if they don’t have those options or designs, I then switch to, uh, PC. Gotcha.
Steve Saylor: (0:23:32):
Okay, so when you’re so though, that’s kind of like your console setup. Uh, what? Like when you said when you move over to your PC, what do you use on your PC to play games?
Grant Stoner: (0:23:41):
Um, I use just a standard keyboard with my right hand, and I only use, uh, roughly. 7 keys. Okay. Uh, used to be 11, but again, with the progression of my disability. Sure. Um, and I use a Logitech G9 or 3 mouse. Okay. Which has 11 buttons that I can adjust with just the left hand side. Um, so it allows me to, um, perform various actions that, for example, um, Destiny 2. I know you’re a big fan of that. Yes. Uh, I play on PC, and most of the times the actions are bound to my mouse.
Speaker S3: (0:24:38):
Oh, interesting.
Grant Stoner: (0:24:39):
Shooting, aiming, jumping, sprinting, ability, grenades and melee are all my mouse. Okay, okay.
Steve Saylor: (0:24:53):
Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
Grant Stoner: (0:24:55):
Yeah. This is where my movement and my super are on my keyboard.
Steve Saylor: (0:25:02):
Ah okay, so when you’re when you’re using your, your mouse is sort of like your, your camera, so to speak, or you’re being able to, to, to aim. Um, do you have to like increase the sensitivity in, in games in order for it to be able to have the full range of motion?
Grant Stoner: (0:25:19):
So my DPI currently is 6400.
Speaker S3: (0:25:23):
Oh my goodness. Wow.
Grant Stoner: (0:25:25):
If you sneeze my mouse flies across
Speaker S3: (0:25:28):
the screen.
Grant Stoner: (0:25:29):
But because of my limited motion. Mhm. Um, it’s not sensitive for me at all. It’s perfect. It’s as if, like, people were using a mouse with like 400 DPI.
Speaker S3: (0:25:41):
Yeah.
Steve Saylor: (0:25:42):
I think for mine is like 1400 or something. That’s in between 1100 and 1400. But uh, that’s 65. That’s, that’s a that’s pretty impressive, sir. Yeah.
Grant Stoner: (0:25:51):
It’s, um, so I move my mouse in very small motions because the DPI is so big. Um, it actually is able to drive across the entire screen without it zooming. Um, my friends were like, they make fun of me because we play game, and I, like, turn around my character will spin, like 700 times and really fast.
Speaker S3: (0:26:17):
I love that, that’s great. Oh, it’s like. Oh, Grant’s…
Steve Saylor: (0:26:22):
What’s Grant doing? Uh, he’s having trouble with his mouse.
Speaker S3: (0:26:26):
He’s just having fun. Yeah, he’s having fun. He’s spinning around. Yeah. Oh, I love that.
Steve Saylor: (0:26:32):
So obviously, you know, like, we’re talking about kind of a lot about the hardware today, but obviously, you know, a good advancement into assistive technology is also part of the software, too. And a lot of, um, sort of features and built in design and options are definitely enabled you to, to play these games as like as we just mentioned, like obviously having to be able to increase the DPI on your mouse and being able to remap controls and stuff like that. So what are some of the options or features that you generally look for when you’re playing a game that in order to be able to help you be more comfortable when you’re playing?
Grant Stoner: (0:27:08):
Uh, fully customizable controls is a must. Okay. Um, if a game for uh, consoles, there are system inputs that you can use. Um, but the issue with that is you have to keep going back into the system to change the inputs, right? This is why I prefer if games have them are natively not through console support. Um, some assistive technologies are somewhat alleviate that, like, um, I know the Access controller, the PlayStation, uh, there’s three different profiles, um, that you can switch immediately with just the press of a button. Yeah. Um, so it’s nice to be able to have like right now I have three profiles set up. So if I’m doing an RPG, I’ll find profile one. I’m doing more action based game, I’ll have a profile two, and if I’m just trying to do, um, for the first time, I don’t know what time it is. I just have a standard setup with profile three. Um, but traditionally, uh, fully customizable controls or at least majority customizable. Um, and then, uh, sensitivity specifically for PC. Not so much consoles. They really rely on sensitivity options because even though my DPI is wild. Yeah, um, sometimes games still natively treat your mouse as if it’s like 400 DPI. I see okay, so I do rely on sensitivity increases or adjustments. Um, and then for me, it depends on the type of game. But if it’s a game that requires a lot of movement, I prefer auto-movement options. Mhm. So you just press a button, you change moves and you can take your hand off the mouse or controller or what have you. And that’s an new option that I’m starting to rely on. Okay, not as much as the others, but I have found with like on Helldivers 2. Yeah. Because the maps are so big. Yeah. Because you’re constantly moving. Mhm. Um, I’m unable to play more than one match because it’s just too much. Gotcha. So there is an other option, I’d probably be able to play significantly more, right?
Steve Saylor: (0:29:58):
Um, what has been like one, uh, like standout, like, uh, either option or accessible game design that you’ve, like, really like, love that you would love to be able to see be added more, uh, into into games that would really kind of help you and kind of like give you like a good quality of life update to a lot of games.
Grant Stoner: (0:30:20):
There is. Have you heard of, um, Escape from Tarkov?
Speaker S3: (0:30:25):
Yes. Yeah.
Grant Stoner: (0:30:26):
The controls customization in that game is the best I’ve ever seen.
Speaker S3: (0:30:31):
Interesting.
Grant Stoner: (0:30:33):
Yeah. For each action, exceptmovement. Movement you can’t customize it. You can customize the buttons, but not like the input method. So for each action except movement you can customize. Um. If you press a key, hold the key, double tap a key or like release. So press and release. Mhm. You can also double input. So if I want um to pull out my grenade I just do that with like F, right? And then that would be my grenade key. And I can choose again, press uh hold, uh release or double tap. And because there’s all these options, I can customize every input, every major input with was just the options available to me with my mouse and my keyboard. I don’t have to, like, sacrifice a key movement options. Um, so like, for example, if I want to change my strobe and move a match, I can do it with like F and left click.
Speaker S3: (0:31:52):
Interesting.
Grant Stoner: (0:31:53):
It’s some of the best controller customization I’ve ever seen. Any game, ever. And I wish more games would study that. Mhm. And put it into their titles.
Steve Saylor: (0:32:07):
Yeah. Because it’s so it’s not necessarily uh multiple actions per button but it’s more of like uh multiple actions per button input I guess is kind of the best way to describe it. Right? Because like you said, it’s like you tap it once or you double tap or you hold and it will do three different, uh, three different things for you. Right.
Grant Stoner: (0:32:26):
And then like if I use the W key for movement, let’s say I do W key plus F, well then I could do my grenade. So I’m still using the same buttons just in a different manner to perform different actions.
Speaker S3: (0:32:44):
Gotcha.
Grant Stoner: (0:32:44):
Okay. It’s incredible. It’s truly some of the best I’ve ever seen.
Speaker S3: (0:32:49):
So in a way, it’s almost.
Steve Saylor: (0:32:51):
Like kind of like making, like, accessibility macros, uh, in a sense, like within remapping. Oh, I like that a lot. That’s really cool. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. I have to, like, make sure to call it out next time I see that in a game or, uh, like, see more improvements for. That’s really cool. Oh man.
Grant Stoner: (0:33:09):
It’s the one game where I noticed even with my progression of my disability, I can still play. I’ve been playing it since 2019, I think without issues. Um, because of those options.
Speaker S3: (0:33:27):
That’s really cool. I like that a lot.
Steve Saylor: (0:33:29):
Um, okay, so let’s kind of talk a bit about sort of the, the history, a little bit of a kind of assistive technology. Uh, I know that you’re not necessarily like a historical expert, but you are a historical expert in some things, especially the Roman Empire. That’s a whole other thing. Definitely. Uh, you should ask about Grant a little bit later. Uh, talk about the Roman Empire, because, you know, he talked. He’s thinking about all the time. I was.
Speaker S3: (0:33:49):
Going to.
Steve Saylor: (0:33:50):
Try to make a joke about everyone. You know, every day. Everyone thinks it talks about the things about the Roman Empire, but you literally do.
Speaker S3: (0:33:55):
I literally do that. That is your Roman Empire.
Steve Saylor: (0:33:59):
Yeah. But, um, let’s let’s kind of talk a bit about sort of the history and I guess the past of kind of assistive technology. Like how have you seen assistive technology in gaming improve within the past ten years?
Grant Stoner: (0:34:13):
It used to be very third party adjacent. okay, where it would be single or small groups of creators or uh, organizations that would design pieces of equipment, um, based on your specific needs. Uh, and the issue with that is, while it’s great it can be very costly, um, it also takes time to build. Uh, for example, I have a custom, somewhere, uh, PlayStation 4 controller that has the triggers and bumpers on the sides. Um, it’s a standard controller, just extra buttons on the sides that act as the triggers and bumpers that cost $200.
Steve Saylor: (0:35:06):
Oh, wow. Okay.
Grant Stoner: (0:35:07):
And a month or two to build it. Oh, organization called Evil Controllers. I used it for years. It was great. Um, until I wasn’t able to just use the standard controller anymore. And that’s not their fault. That’s my disability progressing. Sure. Um, but we’ve seen this shift from need to know the right people or, uh, the right organizations to now major developers are making their own devices, while not perfect devices are much more approachable option. So they don’t have to wait months or they don’t have to spend. Well usually they don’t have to spend hundreds of dollars on these inputs in these setups that you just do to like, you know, Walmart, GameStop, Best Buy, wherever and just purchase a device and bring it home.
Speaker S3: (0:36:11):
Gotcha. Yeah. Because like.
Steve Saylor: (0:36:13):
I think in a sense, like, yeah, even looking at the history, a lot of it came down to, yeah, like you said, like very bespoke type of controllers where it’s very customized to the player individually themselves. And uh, and then we have like organizations like Special Effects or Warfighter Engaged or AbleGamers like they’re jumping in and sort of filling that gap and creating these custom setups for players. I mean, essentially that’s what those organizations really do is that they just like and that’s what they do best is that they, they have people reach out to them and be like, okay, I need this specific kind of set up. And they kind of assess their needs and be able to create a custom setup for them. Um, but like you said, I think that the, the, the, the sort of the drawback to that is that it does take time to be able to kind of create. And also if, you know, things, uh, kind of change or progress further down the line because of how bespoke it that setup is, it could be like, if you like for you like basically I like, uh, was there any sort of piece of technology that you just sort of outgrew or changed? I mean, obviously you’re not using the, uh, the controller with the, with the popsicle stick anymore. Um, but were there any, uh, like, is there are those setups like, um, is something that, that, uh, that you think is still like, I don’t want to say it’s still useful today, but, like, are those kind of setups or something that, um, that you would recommend for, for players to still be able to look into if you need very specific custom setup?
Grant Stoner: (0:37:41):
I would say for me. No. Okay. Um, but for the greater community, the issue with that is as new systems are created, um, their internal software is incompatible with previous setups.
Speaker S3: (0:37:59):
Gotcha.
Grant Stoner: (0:38:00):
Okay, so it makes it more difficult for controllers. And I’ve seen this from other stories I’ve written on interviewing members of the community, where these setups that they’ve had from either creators or organizations are no longer compatible, um, with PlayStation especially that the DualSense are the PS5, and that release was very reliant on DualSense, and a lot of their games require it to even function. Sure. All of these apps don’t have that, so they find that it doesn’t work. Um, which is why options like the Access controller are so important, because it certainly is response that allows players to use some form of adaptive equipment without having to rely on organizations or creators that eventually will become obsolete as systems evolve.
Steve Saylor: (0:39:01):
And that’s and that’s actually where I perfectly want to be able to lead into, because like, as we kind of go into today where we have like Xbox have with their Adaptive controller, PlayStation with their Access controller, and they’re still like the the third party like controller for the, for Nintendo. Um, like we’re starting to kind of see that that basically because it’s not like a negative and saying like, oh, you know, those kind of organizations and those custom setups are, are, you know, going to go away. But like the combination of those now basically extends the life of those types of controllers and those custom of custom setups, because in certain cases, the Adaptive controller is kind of seen more as a hub where things can connect to it and still, like even the custom setups, can be able to connect to it and work like a regular Xbox controller and sort of similar to the access controller. So when we talk about what we see that obviously that with this sort of investment from the big publishers or the big, big three essentially like Xbox, PlayStation and, you know, even with Nintendo, even though they don’t create an accessible controller, like I think you are a big fan of the of the Joy-Cons in of itself because they actually are, uh, super accessible for you. Yeah.
Speaker S3: (0:40:09):
Um, you can move.
Grant Stoner: (0:40:10):
Them in any position. Yeah, they’re super lightweight. They’re super compact. Yeah. Um, the internal software allows you have five different profiles.
Speaker S3: (0:40:20):
Yes. Yeah.
Grant Stoner: (0:40:21):
For each Joy-con. Yeah. That’s really cool. Incredible.
Speaker S3: (0:40:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Steve Saylor: (0:40:26):
So when we have these combination of technology now that kind of I guess into into the present because a lot of people, you know, we talk about again, like the Xbox Adaptive Controller versus the PlayStation Access controller, like which is better, which serves a player more like like where like, like is one beating over the other. And I think we’ve had this conversation before where it’s never about one versus the other, it’s about one with the other. But creating this ecosystem with all of the custom controllers that are being created, that these are allowing these these systems to be able to play together, uh, in a way that we haven’t had before. So can you talk about a little bit in regards to how these, uh, specifically these first party, uh, controllers/hubs are able to extend the life of these custom setups, but also extend or like, open up the, uh, the playing field as far as being able to allow more players to be able to play more games using this assistive technology.
Grant Stoner: (0:41:26):
Yeah. Um, like I was saying earlier, it is a first party answer, meaning that theoretically we don’t have proof as we theorize these controllers should work on different systems in the future because it’s a first party system or a first rate device that already has the software natively into it. Sure. Um, and because of that, for people with a progressive disability like myself as well as thousands of others, um, you can customize your inputs as you need. Mhm. So if I, you know, let’s say I lose motion of my left hand down the road. Right. where I can just switch up my inputs and make it that my right hand is the dominant hand. Um, it’s a it’s a device. Both controllers, even though they’re different, are meant to grow with you. They’re not necessarily meant to be a temporary solution. They’re meant to be used, um, throughout the system’s lifecycle and presumably the next systems, etc.. Um, they’re basically a first solution to a bigger issue. And presumably, you know, these developers will be innovating on these controllers and these hubs. So I’m sure that there won’t be the only ones that we ever experience. But there’s still meant to be used five, six, seven years down the road, right? Without any issue. Right. And as easily approachable.
Speaker S3: (0:43:30):
Oh, 100%. Yeah.
Steve Saylor: (0:43:32):
Especially because like, as you know, they players going to be able to create these custom setups for themselves using these controllers. But also, you know, using their custom setups they had before. But it kind of extends and it creates a much bigger gaming library for them. Um, than than was possible before. Because like because like because those bespoke setups at the time were, were exactly what was needed. Because that’s all we had. But now, like having these first party controllers essentially, uh, kind of now a sort of open the, the gambit wide open essentially to kind of create more accessible experiences. And so it just means, yeah, more when you have more games that, uh, that are approachable with these controllers and these setups, uh, it means that more players can be able to play these games. And then now with the conjunction of accessibility being a part of, uh, like studios and being included as part of natively within the games themselves and only adds that third, uh, essentially that third, uh, piece of the puzzle that can be able to fill in some of the gaps that, um, either the first party, uh, controllers or some of the, uh, the custom setups are not able to do or weren’t able to necessarily. They predict that that’s what we’re going to be needing to do. It’s not about like, oh, you can’t do this. And it’s locking people out. It’s just more of, hey, this is something new that we didn’t account for when we first made this thing. So now like but we’re using these games to kind of to, to, to fill in those gaps until we, you know, as technology kind of keeps improving. Um, and I wanted to add I was originally going to say like, what are the sort of the pros and cons of what we have available today? Um, but where do you like I do want to be able to ask, like, what do you see? Um, like, what would be your, uh, like what kind of move into a little bit of the future? Like what? Like with what we’ve have today and obviously with the limitations that some of these like setups can have to a certain degree, what would you love to be able to see as sort of like version 2.0 of, uh, the Xbox Adaptive Controller or the PlayStation Access controller, um, that you think could could help, uh, disabled players like yourself, especially like even someone as yourself that has a progressive, uh, disability. Um, still. So that makes sure that you can be able to play games like 10, 15, 20, 30 years from now.
Speaker S3: (0:45:52):
Oh my.
Grant Stoner: (0:45:52):
God, 30 years.
Speaker S3: (0:45:53):
I know, right? Oh, man. I’ll be I’ll be 70 by that point. I’m hoping I’m still.
Steve Saylor: (0:45:58):
Playing games.
Speaker S3: (0:45:59):
When I’m 70.
Grant Stoner: (0:46:00):
Um. I don’t know how you can necessarily improve on that. Expats, which is currently okay, maybe just add more inputs natively. Is that right? Now if you just take the base like brick, I call it the brick. Um, I think there’s like nine buttons that the D-pad, the two big, uh, circular black buttons, the export center button, and then, like, you know, the share and options or whatever. Yep, yep. Maybe add, um, a native control stick or something along those lines so that players aren’t reliant on purchasing everything. Yeah, because sometimes people don’t need to purchase entire setups. Um, I think that would be my only, like, hope for the future of that device. Okay, I have access to controller, I think. for me the shape of it should be maybe a different shape. Okay. Because my needs are the access control has nine buttons with the main circular bit of it. Mhm. Uh, I can only reach four of them. Right. And because it’s a circle, no matter which way I position it.
Speaker S3: (0:47:36):
You’re only getting.
Grant Stoner: (0:47:36):
Access to.
Speaker S3: (0:47:37):
Those four buttons. Yeah, yeah.
Grant Stoner: (0:47:38):
So I think our issue is just, um, making a different shape or like maybe smaller shape in the future. Mhm. Um. Besides from that I know it’s difficult to say because they’re so reliant and what the individual does with them.
Speaker S3: (0:48:01):
I see.
Grant Stoner: (0:48:02):
So out of the box, they look good. But until you start like actually using them and tinkering with them and building your own setup, it’s really difficult to say, like what should be in the future for like the uh, uh, version 2 of these devices.
Steve Saylor: (0:48:26):
And because disability is very much a spectrum, trying to be able to create a device that is customizable, uh, to fill those, uh, for everyone. Yeah, that’s that’s kind of a difficult to do. And like, at least in the current state, I mean, who knows what what could happen in the future. Um, do you see that maybe also as well, uh, price, uh, should be like, should be a factor looking into the future for active technology because, I mean, it’s unfortunate that it’s kind of commonly known is that it’s expensive to be able to or it can be expensive to be able to get a custom assistive technology set up.
Speaker S3: (0:48:58):
Yeah.
Grant Stoner: (0:48:59):
Um, for the Xbox alone which you guys want to mention that maybe having a stick or several buttons. Um, my setup is roughly $350.
Speaker S3: (0:49:14):
Um, okay.
Grant Stoner: (0:49:16):
Which is.
Speaker S3: (0:49:16):
More than what.
Steve Saylor: (0:49:17):
The elite controller is. Uh, the on the Xbox right now. Yeah.
Grant Stoner: (0:49:21):
It’s almost three times more. Yeah. Um, well, it works for me, and it works for years. That’s still $350. Um, the PlayStation controller is slightly more affordable because it’s more of a complete package. Um, however, if you need two controllers, that’s an additional $90. Um, if you need other inputs, that factors in that cost, um, if you need, uh, potentially different, um, attachments. Um, that’s an additional cost. So I would say for future devices, more customization right out of the box from a hardware perspective. Okay. I think is necessary because, uh, what is the rest of. Great. great. Um, not many disabled people have $350 to throw at a controller in their last you for years. Um, many disabled people are on fixed incomes. Um, and $350 for a controller is a big expense.
Speaker S3: (0:50:46):
Right? So what do.
Steve Saylor: (0:50:47):
You see as like a, I guess, moving into the future? Are there any, like, uh, positive, like positive things or like, not say we’ve been talking about negative this whole time, but like, what are some of the things that you are looking forward to, uh, in seeing as the assistive technology kind of, uh, continues to develop.
Grant Stoner: (0:51:04):
I love seeing selfishly, uh, people setups and what they look like. I love the creativity that these two controllers have essentially unleashed within disability community. Because, again, before all these adaptive devices were very individualized and there were only two organizations. So if you were on the internet, you see some of the tools that are out there. You can’t get that. You can’t recreate it because it was individual to either organization that designed it. But now if someone uses an Adaptive controller or PlayStation Access controller, you could see that ”oh, I can make that too” based on what’s available on the market. And I think that community ingenuity is so important for not only us, but also developers, because then they understand, oh, this is what these people are using for fighting games or shooters or what have you. And then maybe they can make their own innovations based on what the community is saying.
Speaker S3: (0:52:28):
Yeah, because.
Steve Saylor: (0:52:29):
You’re like being able to be inspired by their setups could create, you know, inspire ideas or creative ideas and like, oh, we could probably do that. But from a software standpoint, or maybe like as from a hardware standpoint. So, um, because I think like it’s not necessarily accessibility specific, but it actually can be to a degree, is that, uh, when you you mentioned about Helldivers 2, uh, earlier was that I love seeing the, the ingenuity of, uh, someone who created a, like an on an Elgato Steam Deck, which for those who don’t know, it’s a, it’s a device. Basically. It has a bunch of buttons on it. You can they’re basically kind of like macro buttons. You can program them to do a whole variety of different things, most of the use for streaming, but it can totally be used for other things besides streaming. But one of the things they could do in Helldivers 2 is that because Helldivers 2, whenever you need to throw like a stratagem, which is sort of like gives you special weapons or special attacks or like big huge like like, you know, bombs or lasers coming from the sky is that you have to hit a sequence of, of, uh, presses on the D-pad and there’s usually like 6 or 7 button presses, like patterns. You have to be able to push in order to be able to launch those stratagems, but people been able to use the stream deck essentially to program that. So it’s just one button and it basically will instead of like it’ll just play, it will just press all those button sequences for you, which is kind of a really cool accessibility thing in and of itself. Even though people are like are using it’s like, oh, just to kind of make it simple, just, oh, just push that as one button and you’re good to go. Um, so I love, like seeing that, but that’s something that, like, someone sort of like created as a fun thing. And then it kind of became widely adopted by the player base. And I and I’m wondering if, you know, obviously Arrowhead like looking at that being like, oh, that’s actually kind of a neat idea and sort of like letting, letting that sort of be a thing in the game. And I hope that more examples like that could be able to be added in the future, uh, especially with, you know, technology and, uh, with, with that as well.
Speaker S3: (0:54:26):
So, I mean.
Grant Stoner: (0:54:27):
That could be like an option where you could choose three stratagems in the accessibility menu. Yeah. and just pair it with the one button.
Speaker S3: (0:54:36):
That would be.
Steve Saylor: (0:54:36):
Great. Oh my gosh.
Speaker S3: (0:54:38):
Yeah.
Grant Stoner: (0:54:39):
That’s awesome.
Steve Saylor: (0:54:40):
That’s oh that’s a great idea. We we should talk to Arrowhead about that one. Um, but you know, speaking actually of of developers, uh, one of the questions I have is like, what? What must game developers understand, in your opinion, uh, to ensure that their games are inclusive to those who use technology, assistive tech, uh, to play games.
Grant Stoner: (0:55:00):
Um, hardware limitations are awful. Um, the antithesis of community support. Mhm. Um. whenever developers limit what we can use, you’re actively prohibiting, uh, disabled members from enjoying your games. Um, so I think I understand why you chose to use this, uh, but I think in the future, if you were to truly create an inclusive experience, you can’t limit hardware because ultimately it’s just impacting disabled players more than anything, right? And there are some individuals who abuses limitations, uh, like cheaters and hackers and whatnot. But the vast majority of people are people who actively benefit from them. Yeah, for a myriad of reasons, including accessibility. Yeah. Like that. It just takes away progress.
Steve Saylor: (0:56:12):
Yeah. Like I could see why people would sort of think of it as essentially it could be like, uh, potentially exploiting that as sort of a to cheat with. Um, but you’re right, I think like having that, uh, being able to have that keep it as open as possible for, uh, for that specific reason, for accessibility. And just it benefits the players who use that sort of setup. Uh, I think that, yeah, keeping it as open hardware as open as possible would be would be great. And then, you know, obviously being, uh, having your system be a little bit more open or game being a little bit more open to multiple different types of devices. Um, and it’d be be useful because I sort of think of like stuff like ROMs, uh, or even actually games that like that use like because you see, like all the time, like streamers will essentially like, oh, they’re the, they’re using like a DDR dance pad or uh, like a who was the I think it was Rudeism that created basically like a toys controller, like a kids, like a little toddlers controller for Elden Ring. And it’s stuff like that, like being able to kind of be like a lot of games are that open, but making sure that, you know, developers are not actively sort of like, hey, like, you know, turning those things off because, uh, again, it kind of goes back to that ingenuity of players sometimes is that they get to create something that developers wouldn’t even think about. And it turns out to be kind of like one of the coolest things about either the game or, uh, or just in general. So, um, yeah, I definitely agree with that one. Um, and then, uh, the next question is, what are some like, resources that players can visit to, uh, make their setup, uh, more adapted to their needs?
Grant Stoner: (0:57:45):
Uh, social media? Okay. I just wanted to be just resources. I think it’s often treated as like a, uh, a joke, right? But social media is one of the biggest tools. Um, you know, you can post questions, you can see other disabled people and their setups. Um, maybe for inspiration. Uh, you know, if you’re having an issue, uh, you can maybe tag a developer and sometimes they’ll answer, uh, you and I have both seen that plenty of times. Um, yeah. I think the biggest thing with social media, uh, especially because there’s so many platforms now. Uh, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter (never X). Um, and, you know, all these new sites coming up, uh, and forums like Reddit, Reddit has timeless forums. Um, that’s the best and easiest way to connect with either communities or developers or schools or organizations or what have you to help, um, solve issues or gain inspiration.
Steve Saylor: (0:59:05):
Yeah, for sure, because I think that, uh, a lot of those organizations we even talked about are also like on social media. So, uh, reaching out to them and or asking people who are, you know, are in the space and can definitely be a great resource as well. So, yeah, um.
Grant Stoner: (0:59:20):
I mean, just as an example, just remind me, um, Xbox did ban devices in November, right? And during this period, uh, disabled players were able to reach out on social media and ask them what would be affected. Um, and the team was teams will respond and give advice and provide solutions. All because of social media.
Steve Saylor: (0:59:48):
Yeah. And they were very receptive to that too, which was which was great. So. Um, well, and yeah, I love I love it when the stories like that happen too. So, um, but you know what? Hey, also, speaking of social media, I guess with this, we’re going to kind of leave it where, um, where can people be able to find you online and follow you and everything that all the articles and all the stuff that you do.
Grant Stoner: (1:00:10):
Uh, most of my work is on on my work is shared on Twitter (never X). um, at @Super_Crip1994. Um, my portfolio is on there. It’s attached my bio. I usually always have a monthly column on IGN called Access Design. It’s all about accessibility and the industry and what’s happening currently. Um, yeah, I write for Wired. Uh uh, new publications coming up on IGN again. Uh, GameInformer. But all these updates to be found there. Also partnership posts.
Speaker S3: (1:00:56):
Yeah.
Steve Saylor: (1:00:57):
That’s true.
Speaker S3: (1:00:58):
Uh. Uh, and he’s and he’s got some.
Steve Saylor: (1:01:00):
Great posts on there too. So that’s great. Uh, perfect. Well, thank you so much, Grant, for for joining us today and, uh, for giving all your insight into, into your work and, you know, into the assistive technology and hopefully you build, uh, you as a listener.
Speaker S3: (1:01:12):
Slash.
Steve Saylor: (1:01:12):
Watcher or viewer, uh, are interested in that too. Um, so thank you so very much for watching and or listening. Uh, if you have any questions, you can either contact either myself, uh, Grant or even the folks at Player Research. If you would like to learn more about what we talked about today. And also make sure to check out the rest of the series of Advancing Accessibility. And you can find all the, uh, that those resources at PlayerResearch.com. Thanks again and have a great day and go play some games.
Speaker : (1:01:40):
Bye.

Written by

Améliane F. Chiasson CPACC

Games Accessibility Lead

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