Advancing Accessibility Podcast: Episode 3

The third episode of our limited podcast series is live, with host Steve Saylor and award-winning consultant Ross Minor as our guest.

Listen on Spotify, or watch on YouTube.

Transcript of Episode 3

Steve Saylor:     (0:00:01):
Welcome to Advancing Accessibility, a mini podcast series focusing on the great work done by individuals pushing for accessibility in the gaming industry and answering the question, what’s next? This show is brought to you by Player Research Is Advancing Accessibility. To find out more about player research and this initiative, you can go to the link in the show notes or to Player research.com. I’m your host, Steve Sailer and accessibility consultant, content creator, Twitch ambassador and host of this series. And in today’s episode, it’s all about the blind Game’s accessibility journey. And my guest today is award winning accessibility consultant and content creator Ross Miner. Ross, it is an absolute pleasure to have you on the show today.
Ross Minor:      (0:00:42):
Likewise. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here and talk about blind game accessibility.
Steve Saylor:     (0:00:47):
Heck yeah. And actually I want to I’m we’re going to go back and start about your, your journey, uh, in and of itself. But I want to talk about the award winning aspect, because you just came back from South by Southwest. And, uh, for those who know, definitely follow Ross on social media. He’s got a there’s a great video of you accepting the award there. But can you tell us a little bit what was the like just for those who don’t know what was the award and and what was sort of like, uh, like, how did that all happen for you?
Ross Minor:      (0:01:15):
Yeah. So. Oh, man. Like, it definitely peak moment of my life because I was not expecting it at all. But basically, I was originally going to South by Southwest, um, to participate on a panel about, uh, VR game accessibility and I guess, um, for people who I’m not sure if it’s for people who are presenting or what, but they South by Southwest reached out to me and said that I had won a community service award. Um, basically five people a year. Get them. And, uh, it’s part of like the Greater Innovation Awards, uh, uh, award show. And yeah, basically they wanted to recognize my work in accessibility and like, just I don’t even know how, like to describe how shocked and honored I was to get that because, I mean, like, thousands and thousands of people go to South by Southwest. And I was absolutely just floored. And it was most of all, it was just so validating, you know, to, um, to have my accessibility, but just accessibility in general be recognized at the Innovation Awards because they’re recognizing that, yes, an innovation in that. Well, in my case, it’s a service to the community, you know. Sure. And the the cool thing about it, on top of it is that I wasn’t even the only one who won an award around accessibility. Um, there are other people as well. Cool. Yeah. It was it was really cool.
Steve Saylor:     (0:02:39):
Oh that’s awesome. Well, I will say it is extremely well deserved. So congratulations, sir. Thank you so much. I saw that and I was like, I was just sitting here at home and I was just like, hell yes. Like that is so amazing because I remember you, you talked about you were going to South By, and I was like, that was like with because I know the folks over at, uh, Alchemy Labs. And it was like, so great to be able to see them there. And you being a part of that, uh, that panel, it was I didn’t get a chance to see the panel, but I, uh, I was so glad to be able to see that that, you know, black gamers are being represented in that way. And that was really cool. But then, yeah, to see you get to where I was like that. Yes, yes. It’s so great to see like good people be able to get, uh, get other things that that they deserve wholeheartedly. So, uh, congratulations again, sir. Yeah.
Ross Minor:      (0:03:24):
And like, just on top of that, like, people who win the award get a lifetime pass to South by Southwest. And so, like, no way.
Steve Saylor:     (0:03:30):
Really. Oh, that’s. Yeah.
Ross Minor:      (0:03:32):
Like, it’s it’s ridiculously cool. And so I was like, just I’m going to go back every year talk about game accessibility. I can, you know, just have that opportunity. It’s so great.
Steve Saylor:     (0:03:43):
That’s so I always love South by. I mean, I always like remember way back in the day like that’s where Twitter launched. Like that’s it really. Yeah. Like when way back when they started the innovation track. Um, that like basically that’s why a lot of, uh, web companies or tech companies go to South By is because they want to sort of get become like launch their product or service and go viral. And that’s what happened with Twitter. Like it basically blew up because so many people were interested in it at South By. And that’s how Twitter got started, because a lot of like, tech people were interested in Twitter, like they were like one of the first sort of early adopters and then, you know, then it just grew from there. But, um, yeah. Like, so you’re you’re part of a very prestigious history there, which is pretty great. So, um, all right, so let’s, let’s talk a little bit about yourself because, I mean, we’ve, we’ve hung out a little bit, uh, we broke bread uh, a year ago, but we never really had a chance to sort of sit down and and chat, uh, and get to know each other a little bit. So I want to I want to take this time to, you know, let let’s get to know Ross a little bit. Um, why don’t you tell us just briefly, kind of like a little bit about yourself and, um, and also if you, if you’re comfortable with it, uh, talk a little bit about, um, your specific disability.
Ross Minor:      (0:04:52):
Yeah. Oh, man. So, um, where do I even start first? Yeah, I’m totally blind. Um, I’ve been a lifelong gamer ever since I can remember. Um, I was not born blind, though, so, like, a big part of my story is how I went blind and kind of how my story developed from there, how video games played into that. And so basically where it starts. Um, I guess I’ll just say like, massive trigger warning, uh, but basically when I was eight. So like back in 2006, my mother divorced my father. And so a lot of people these days call them family annihilations. And that is essentially what my dad did to me, my brother and himself and I. So I was blinded from a gunshot, um, and I lost all my sight. Uh, I literally went to bed with sight and woke up in a hospital bed completely blind. And so obviously that was really hard for me. That was really hard for my mother and just, you know, had a massive ripple effect in the community. But this is where gaming comes into play because, um, it I mean, we all have our reasons for playing video games, whether it’s escapism, socialization, the puzzles, like simulation, just so many different things. Well, for me, of course, I love the stimulation stimulation of video games, but I realized that I didn’t want my blindness to prevent me from playing video games. And you know, when I was in the hospital, like my friend would come and like I’d listen to them play Pokemon and I’d be like, oh, you just sent out a Pikachu, you just sent out a Groudon, you know? And I was like, wait a minute. All these Pokemon have different cries. And then then I kept listening. I was like, wait, I can tell which. I remember this music. You’re in this city, this town. And it got me just realizing I may be able to play Pokemon still. And sure enough, it was very tedious and painstaking, but I memorized all the sounds, all the cries, everything so I could play with my friends at school. And this was a huge way to bridge that gap that many people with disabilities are aware of, of kind of like, you know, being in your world and then being in the able bodied world and being able to play Pokemon showed me that, you know, I can be part of their world, and it shows others that I’m capable of doing these things that I’m just a kid. I’m just a person. You know, my blindness doesn’t make me different from you. And because of that, like, I continued to play, you know, Pokemon growing up. And I would always think like, oh, man, if they just added this, this, this, like, I could completely play the game without any help whatsoever. But, you know, it was always kind of like a pipe dream, so to say. It’s like, ah, it’ll never happen. Um, and I kind of grew up with this mindset of, oh, like, just certain video games can be played, but the majority can’t be. Um, and it’s it’s interesting how many blind people fall into this mindset of like, oh, I’m the only one who plays video games. Like there aren’t others out there. And so it wasn’t until, like, high school when I realized that there is a massive online blind gaming community, and that’s when I got sucked into audio games. That’s when I learned about Mortal Kombat and Mortal Kombat. And fighting games in general are really popular amongst the blind community. And from there, um, it kind of all sort of came to a head when I did like an AMA on Reddit when I was in high school. And, uh, I had mentioned that I played Mortal Kombat and everyone was like, wait a minute, how how do you play Mortal Kombat? And so I posted a YouTube video. It went, uh, you know, viral relative back then, you know. Sure. Not like millions or anything, but you know what I mean? It got a lot of views. And that’s when I realized, like, not only do I want to play video games, not only do I realize that accessibility is important, but like the general public wants accessibility to be a priority in video games, whether you know they explicitly or implicitly know it or not. Um, accessibility, you know, these, these, uh, goals, um, people want to see companies work toward a good cause. And this is definitely one of those. And so that’s kind of what started my content creation journey. Um, I mean, I’ve, I’ve done all sorts of things like went to college, competed in the Paralympics, but like through all of that game, accessibility was what I did and on on YouTube and on Twitch. Um, because it’s just something I, I always, always believed in. And even then, like, I thought it was kind of just a hobby, but like, I mean, it’s just a snowball effect And and that’s how I found other content creators like you and Super Blind Man. And like so many other disabled creators, I’m like, this is like, this is a movement. And so pretty much like when the pandemic hit, I retired from the Paralympics and I was like, I’m going to focus on game accessibility full time, like, this is what I need to do. And yeah, I mean, long story short, now I’m here in Los Angeles and I couldn’t be happier with what I’m doing.
Steve Saylor:     (0:10:06):
I love that, and it’s such a wide and varied journey, for sure. And actually because and and what’s interesting so part of this episode is like so my of course my disability is I do have, uh, a sort of some blindness. Some people would say it’s low vision or visually impaired like so. But I love, I’m loving. I love the fact that both of us are on this episode, because it really kind of showcases, uh, the spectrum of blindness and that it’s never just an on off switch. And we kind of come from different sort of perspectives, uh, of blindness. Because for me, growing up, I didn’t like unfortunately, I didn’t have that moment, um, with gaming in that I could be able to like I was like, oh, you know what? Like, I could be able to do this because I just thought, oh, you know, games were just weren’t meant for me and that I just I just sucked at them. So I kind of given up a long time ago. Uh, and like, even when I was involved in sort of the geek and nerdy culture and throughout, uh, high school and college gaming was always just something that, oh, yeah, my friends can do, but I never, I could never really do. It was honestly like once I started getting into, like, content creation and on YouTube and then also like joining sort of the accessibility community that I really that in a way, I started to kind of see more than just one person who was blind, who was playing video games. Like it was such a rare thing for me. And this was like until, like, I didn’t see this until my 30s. So do you experience that early on? And being able to jump into those, uh, those forums and finding other blind gamers and finding audio games, like, I only just discovered those a couple of years ago because it was again, it was it wasn’t even on my radar. I didn’t even know that was a thing. Uh, growing up.
Ross Minor:      (0:11:48):
That’s exactly how I was to like and like. Yeah, granted, I may have gotten to that realization like, earlier, but, like, I mean, there are some people who are like, oh, yeah, I’ve always been playing audio games since I was a kid. And I was like, mhm. Yeah. I just had no idea that they were even things.
Steve Saylor:     (0:12:03):
Sure. And that’s the thing because I. You probably could think because I wanted to mention that. So for your realization, it was, was was actually in video games for me actually was Star Trek. Oh really? Yeah. Well, because I grew up, I that was my first sort of nerd love. Like I that was when I realized, oh yeah, no, I’m a I’m like, I like the geeky nerdy things was my that was my was Star Trek. And it was watching that, you know, sitting super close to the TV and trying to be able to see as much detail as I could. But I when when I saw, uh, the character Geordi La Forge was there. What what sort of turned that made that click for me? I was like, you know what? I’m not I’m not letting I shouldn’t let my disability sort of control me. But I can be like, I’m more than just my disability was when I realized that Geordi was blind. But he was the chief engineer of the big. Of the biggest and the best starship in all of Starfleet. And so if he was in charge of all the tech, all of all the gadgets and all the the ins and outs of the workings of a ship, and he was able to do that while blind. Sure, he had an assistive equipment with his visor, but he was able to do that while being blind. It made me realize, like, I could accomplish anything. Yeah, and that was sort of like I always say that a lot of people’s may not realize is that that when you have a disability, you kind of sort of adopt or you learn a superpower, and that is adaptability. Like we’re able to adapt to the world around us in much easier, much faster than, uh, than others who don’t have a disability. Because we have to we have to adapt to our environment. So when you were playing those video games, like it’s funny, you mentioned Pokemon like you and fellow a guest of the show, Grant stoner, would get along extremely well. We both love Pokemon, so.
Ross Minor:      (0:13:49):
Definitely I follow him. I love.
Steve Saylor:     (0:13:51):
This stuff. So. So when you had that like realization with Pokemon, you realize, oh, like there’s there like there’s things that could like if they could do this, this and this. When did you start? Like when did you start being able to realize you can be able to adapt to your own abilities and your own body, to being able to play video games at a time where blind accessibility wasn’t or even accessibility in general, wasn’t even a thing.
Ross Minor:      (0:14:17):
Yeah, I mean, ah man. So really like playing Pokemon has helped me in the real world in many different ways. Yeah. So, like growing up, I’ve always been told that I’ve had like, really good orientation, like of my surroundings as a blind person. Um, and I really attribute a big part of that to playing Pokemon because, you know, yeah, there’s like the cognitive load of memorizing everything. But I also really had to learn to build a mental map and like, same in Pokemon, you know, keep stay aware of my surroundings. I had to do that in the real world as well. And so I think it really just helped me, uh, uh, improve my hearing, honestly. Um, and just kind of be more sensitive to those things and like, I mean, even within Pokemon, there are sometimes I’d have advantages of over a sighted person. Um, like, for example, you know, there there are, um, areas where like, like caves, you know, where you have like, no light. It’s just like this little circle of light around your character and that’s it. Um, that didn’t affect me at all. So, like, I could get through those caves faster than a sighted person or, um.
Steve Saylor:     (0:15:32):
Like. Yeah. Seriously, like, what’s the difference? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Ross Minor:      (0:15:36):
Exactly. It’s like when you find a shiny Pokemon, like, you know, it plays a sound. And so, um, um, Um, I think I think things like that really kind of showed me that, yeah, I can play video games, too, and and sometimes better than inside of people. And so I was like, what would it be like if this game was intentionally made accessible?
Steve Saylor:     (0:15:57):
I love that. So let’s jump into because you said you mentioned you kind of just breezed over this, but I mean, you were a Paralympian. Uh, let’s talk about that for a second, because I want to and I can tie this into video games. So when you, uh, when you started to to go down that path of being a Paralympian, was there anything in, you know, like you said, with, with, uh, sort of your adaptability with, with Pokemon? Was there anything that in gaming that helped you become a better Paralympian?
Ross Minor:      (0:16:28):
Oh, man. So first I would say definitely the concept of like repeating something over and over to get it perfect or as close to as perfect. Um, because, I mean, that’s what I had to do growing up my entire life, playing games without any accessibility features. And same thing in the Paralympics, like so. I was specifically a swimmer and like, you have to really have to have a feel for your body and like hand placement absolutely matters. And so you got to do it over and over for hours and hours and days and days and weeks to get it perfect. Um, and so like that’s something that kind of like it. I don’t want to say it was a breeze for me because it definitely wasn’t. It was very hard work, but like, it was kind of something I was already used to In a way. Um, and I would say, yeah, that’s that’s definitely the biggest one is just like the the repetition of it all really helped out a lot. Um, really, other than that, I would say they are kind of different, like fields of of memorization. Um, but yeah, I think it just kind of just playing video games built that determination, uh, to kind of compete, you know.
Steve Saylor:     (0:17:48):
Okay. Now that makes total sense. Like, I can definitely see the correlation, uh, there as well. Like, well, because, yeah, I mean, I there’s obviously a lot of things you have to think about like, oh, you just swim in a pool like, no, it’s it’s a lot more than just that.
Speaker S3:       (0:18:01):
Like.
Steve Saylor:     (0:18:01):
Yeah, like as you said, because like, uh, being able to, like, you have to have your arms and your hands and your and your legs in very specific positions and.
Ross Minor:      (0:18:09):
Like it’s also patterns as well, like in a video game, like if you’re fighting a boss, you got to find the patterns. Well, in the Paralympics, like when you do a flip turn, you know, in the pool, you everyone is different. You have to know how many strokes before you need to do a flip turn. You have to count how many strokes it takes you to get from one end of the lane to the other. Um, and finding those patterns, like being detail oriented like that really goes a long way.
Steve Saylor:     (0:18:32):
Okay. Did it just like, uh, did you eventually like when you started, like was you were like where you’re like counting the different strokes and then figuring that out, or you just sort of like, was it like after a while it kind of like, oh, no, I can go this, do this by feel essentially.
Ross Minor:      (0:18:45):
Yeah. So, um, basically the way I did it was so first you I always counted how long it took me from get to one end of the lane to the other. Um, no matter what, I would always keep that in my head. But then, um, so when a blind person is doing a flip turn, they have a person standing on each end of the pool, and they basically have this long pole with a, like a tennis ball on the end of it, and they tap you, um, to let you know when you need to flip. Well, you kind of have to, like, coordinate with your tapper on when you like to be tapped. And so for me, if I remember correctly, I like being tapped like two strokes out. Um, so I have to remember how many strokes it takes to get from one end of the lane to the other. And then I have to remember how many strokes after I get tapped. Um, and just like things along that line. Um, okay. Yeah.
Steve Saylor:     (0:19:36):
Okay. Because I was like, I was thinking about, you know, whenever we like, we’ll play a game and we have to go up against a boss, like being able, we have to first sort of count. Okay. How many times is it they, they do this specific attack and then you know, how many seconds it takes to for them to be able to do the next attack. And you have to listening for that, those audio cues. And if you do have a little bit of sight, trying to be able to memorize the animation pattern of those bosses, but eventually, like at like as you, you know, as you said, like, yeah, you’re kind of trying to remember that. But I think it also again with fighting a boss, then when you start to do it in pattern recognition, it’s you start to kind of feel for it a little bit and be like, okay, I can I don’t have to necessarily count as much like or you have just a sort of innate sort of feeling of like, okay, about five. He’s done this about five times now. He’s about ready to be able to do my, my, this attack kind of thing. And so, um, so the question is actually do you play or can you play any like Soulslike game or anything that has like a pretty strong boss?
Ross Minor:      (0:20:37):
Yeah. Well, um, I know this isn’t like a soulslike game, but like last night, I just defeated the lizard Boston Spider-Man two, and that was really difficult.
Steve Saylor:     (0:20:47):
Oh, okay.
Ross Minor:      (0:20:48):
Oh, man, it was so difficult. But, I mean, I did it eventually. Um, but I mean, in terms of, like, Soulslikes, I haven’t really played many of them. Um, I’m not, like, extremely familiar with the genre because I feel like, you know, uh, they could be made more accessible, but, like. Sure.
Steve Saylor:     (0:21:06):
Yeah, I don’t know.
Ross Minor:      (0:21:07):
Would you? You wouldn’t call like, Hades a soulslike. You’d call that like a roguelike, right?
Steve Saylor:     (0:21:11):
That is definitely a roguelike. But I mean, it does have, like, uh, some pretty strong, uh, bosses, which I, I was playing it today, and I still have yet to be able to get that one. Like successful run. I got to the boss though quicker than I did before. Oh, really?
Ross Minor:      (0:21:23):
But you got all the way, which I.
Steve Saylor:     (0:21:24):
Got all the way to Meg. Meg was a wow. Yeah. So I I’ve yet to beat her. I’m getting close, I’m getting close. But oh, it’s.
Ross Minor:      (0:21:31):
So such a fun game. Oh.
Steve Saylor:     (0:21:33):
I’m loving it. It’s it’s it’s so much, so much a blast. Um, but. Yeah. Like, because, well, one reason why I asked regards to more, more specifically the boss. Boston. So let’s focus on the, you know, the spider, the lizard boss and Spider-Man two. What were like, were there anything that like was it a similar thing for you with, you know, the things you learned as a Paralympian that you’re able to sort of take into, like, okay, learning how to be able to defeat this, this boss or did that knowledge basically was just always innately in you, pretty much since you started playing like you played Pokemon when you were, uh, when you when you lost your vision.
Ross Minor:      (0:22:06):
Yeah. I think it’s definitely been innately in me. Um, just hearing others play video games or, like, playing video games myself. Um, because, like, obviously Pokemon, like, you don’t really have to, like, listen for, like, timing, right? But, uh, you know, I did play like, Super Smash Brothers, for example. Like, that game was fairly blind accessible by, uh, design. Um, but, you know, like I said, like the Paralympics, like the knowing the patterns definitely times or it plays into that because, like, um, how do I like in the Paralympics? Like doing a flip turn, you know, you obviously like, have to know when to flip, but then you have to know how deep you want to get in the, in the once you plant your feet on the wall, because if you’re too deep and then you push off, you may, uh, do a streamline deeper than you’ve intended. If you push off too high, then you’re just going to go to the top of the water and not get any distance. Um, and so like getting that feel same, exact, same exact process for video games. Like last night I was streaming on Twitch, um, when I was fighting him for quite a while, I was struggling to hear when, um, he was actually stunned and I kept getting clapped and I was like, oh man. But then I mean, like, you can I I’m hoping to post this on social media at some point, but like, you can see the moment where it clicks for me because then I just clap back and I, I just destroyed him because I could finally, uh, I got down the timing. Um, and so, like, I mean, that’s half the reason I play video games because, like, despite what you may think, I’m not really a huge competitive person when it comes to, like, competing against others.
Steve Saylor:     (0:23:56):
I’m more so neither am I.
Ross Minor:      (0:23:58):
Yeah, right. Like, I more so, like competing against myself.
Steve Saylor:     (0:24:01):
That’s it. Yeah yeah yeah.
Ross Minor:      (0:24:03):
Yeah, exactly. And so, um, that was. oh, man, that was just defeating bosses like that is so rewarding. Um, just to know that you can do it and kind of, kind of a little tangent, but I just, I love this little detail in Spider man, uh, that whenever a lot of the times when you’re fighting bosses or even like doing doing other missions, um, you know, Peter or Miles will kind of, like, think out loud and say what you have to do. And oh my gosh, it helps out so much. Because like last night with the boss, I like I said, I was having trouble telling when he was stunned. Well, occasionally, uh, Peter would be like, gotta get in close. I’m like, oh, he’s done. I can go in now. And, uh, it’s just I love little details like that.
Steve Saylor:     (0:24:48):
It’s funny because a lot of people complain about about that in games, and I’m like, no, but it helps. Like Exactly.
Ross Minor:      (0:24:55):
It helps so much.
Steve Saylor:     (0:24:56):
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Okay. So then as a side sort of question, I got to ask which feeling is better? Beating a boss in Spider-Man two or winning a race a winning a race in a swim meet?
Ross Minor:      (0:25:08):
Uh, definitely beating a boss hands down.
Steve Saylor:     (0:25:11):
I figured I figured as much.
Ross Minor:      (0:25:13):
I’ll tell you why. Like, okay, so this isn’t against the, you know, the Paralympic Organization. No. Of course. Yeah. Kind of the nature of being blind. Right. But. Right.
Steve Saylor:     (0:25:25):
We love the Paralympics around here on this podcast. So yeah, you’re.
Ross Minor:      (0:25:28):
Gonna you’re gonna crack up about this. So basically anytime, anytime throughout my career, if I would win a race, I, I wouldn’t know I wouldn’t know if I won the race.
Steve Saylor:     (0:25:38):
Of course. Yeah. Because how would you know.
Ross Minor:      (0:25:40):
And so like.
Steve Saylor:     (0:25:41):
I.
Ross Minor:      (0:25:41):
Remember the first time I won first place, like in high school. Um, you know, I, I had touched and everyone, like, the crowd was roaring and I got out and I was like, did I win? Did I like what happened there? You got first place. I was like, oh, I did.
Steve Saylor:     (0:25:56):
I love that, but at least with, you know, when you’re defeating a boss in Spider-Man, like, you know, like, right when I know I’m like, yes, I did it. And like, you.
Ross Minor:      (0:26:04):
Get that just huge dopamine rush like that instant gratification that. Yes, I did that.
Steve Saylor:     (0:26:10):
Sure. Ah, I love that. Yeah. That’s so great. Um, well okay. So let’s, let’s jump ahead into now, like, you know, you mentioned that, uh, after the Paralympics and then, you know, with, with the pandemic, you started getting into sort of, uh, more content creation and consulting for accessibility. So what got you interested in that? Was it just sort of your, you know, your interest in video games all along, or was it something that, oh, I can like I have like a, like a voice I could be able to add to the, to this community and I can be able to add my expertise into that. And you just like, decided, okay, this is what I want to do.
Ross Minor:      (0:26:44):
Yeah. Well, I mean, it was definitely a journey to get there because, um, I mean, just as game accessibility has grown, so has my confidence in my knowledge. Um, because like, let’s say, you know, when gaming accessibility wasn’t as popular, I would view what I knew, kind of just like some sort of niche, like, uh, lived experience type thing. Um, but now I’ve come to realize that I’m just a very detail oriented person. Um, and I think that lends itself well to accessibility. But, um, I mean, none of that compares to just all of the people that have come before me and all the people that have inspired me because, um, it wasn’t just like, oh, I can make this a career. Oh, I can. Uh, it wasn’t like that. It was actually just viewing all the other work that people were doing, whether it be you super Blind man, Ian Hamilton, Tara like like when I decided to dive head first into the game accessibility community, that’s when like, my eyes were open and I realized like this, like I said, is a movement and I’m not the only one. I think what kind of like hindered my confidence was feeling like I was the only one doing this. But like, if you go searching for other people that are in your corner like you, you will find them. Um, and I think that was that was really, really important to me because like in the Paralympics, like no one there played video games. Like I remember at the Olympic Training Center, I tried to, like, form a magic The Gathering club and like, no one wanted to play.
Steve Saylor:     (0:28:25):
Oh, it’s such a shame. I know. Um. And so.
Ross Minor:      (0:28:31):
Yeah, it’s just like when you find people that have the same passion as you, it really, really motivates you. At least for me. Like, it’s the same thing. Like when you see other people working out, like it makes you want to get in shape as well. And so that’s like just seeing content creators like you super blind man. Everyone, um, just gave me that confidence. And I think kind of what sealed the deal was, honestly, when The Last of Us came out, um, um, I mean, just you and Brandon were consultants on the game, and that’s so, like, before I had done a little bit of consulting for, uh, Madden 2018 with EA, uh, back when I lived in Florida. Um, but I, I very much perceived it as just a one off thing, almost like a charitable thing, like, oh yeah, we’ll we’ll let you tour the place and you can get some feedback, but like, then just you guys, when I saw that you guys did work on the game, like you were very much involved, it wasn’t just like, give us your feedback and that’s it. Like, you guys had a role in the design process and you guys got paid for it and it was on a triple A game. That’s when I was like, game accessibility is here to stay. Um, there’s just no way that, uh, we’re going to take a step backward after this.
Steve Saylor:     (0:29:52):
Yeah, I think that definitely, uh, um, The Last of Us was a turning point for a lot. Like all of us, really. Um, even for those of us who who worked on it, like, there was, uh, like among us, like the the eight, sort of a group of core, uh,core consultants that helped work on it. Like, we really like it was definitely like a watershed moment that I think I mean, I’ve said it before where it’s like Last of Us was sort of like is the like we the accessibility before The Last of Us and the accessibility afterwards. And um, um, so I’m, I’m glad that that, that, that inspired me. Like, again, I very small part of it. But I’m glad that like that the work that was done by, uh, by us and the team was, was inspirational in that and that sort of sense and realized, okay, yeah, actually this this can be done. And now we’re at a point where, yeah, like blind accessibility is something that we should, you know, keep striving for and be like, okay, now we got an example of how it could work. Let’s try to be able to make that for for other games.
Ross Minor:      (0:30:49):
Yeah, exactly. And like like I would say advocacy like especially accessibility advocacy is overall, in my opinion, like kind of thankless work, like not all the time, of course, you know what I mean? But like, sure, uh, a lot of the times it can be a lot of times it can be difficult to know if you’re making a difference. Um, so, like any anyone listening, like, if you do any sort of advocacy, like, it’s, it’s a huge butterfly effect, um, because you just don’t know who’s seeing your stuff and you don’t know, like how much it resonates with them. It’s like, oh man, I remember again in the Paralympics, like, my friends were going to go play D&D, but I was stuck on trying to play Battlefront by myself independently. Um, because I loved playing that game when I could see. And so I was just getting really, really frustrated and I was like, literally brought to tears. And like, I remember this was I think when I first like kind of started following Ian and I just messaged him, I was like, when, like, why don’t developers understand that we want to play video games? Da da da da da da. And you know, he was like reassuring. He’s like, trust me. Like like people are listening. But of course I was like pessimistic back then because there wasn’t any evidence of that.
Steve Saylor:     (0:32:01):
I think a lot of us were for sure. So you definitely weren’t alone in that.
Ross Minor:      (0:32:05):
Yeah, exactly. And so it’s just. Yeah, all all I can really say is just thank you to everyone who works in game accessibility because, uh, it’s it’s a community effort, and it pays off when we all work together.
Steve Saylor:     (0:32:18):
Exactly. Um, it definitely like, it’s it’s never just 1 or 2, like, two people. It definitely is a group of us that like a community that we all when we all work together. Because then our voices are much louder and within the room and, uh, and more people are wanting to be able to learn more about accessibility because, you know, whenever, like, I’m sure like, uh, when you consult, it’s a similar, similar to me is that we’re like having that lived in experience is super essential and great feedback no matter what it’s like. Oh yeah. No, it’s just, you know, it’s it’s my own life. It’s, you know, I’m like, I’m only one player amongst so many people are going to be playing this game. It’s it really like it’s hard to be able to kind of, uh, to realize like, yeah, you do have a lasting impact, but, but when you go in and you and you start to kind of and you see the, the, the fruits of just the, you know, the little tiny experiences that we got to have with it being like, well, you know, if you just did this or, you know, I would love it if this if this was here, then like, it not only improves the game for for you so that you can be able to play it, but it improves the game for other blind players, but also just for players in general, because the game is now vastly improved than it than it was before. Yeah. Um. And sorry. Go ahead.
Ross Minor:      (0:33:30):
Oh, I was going to say, like, just when you give people the tools like, you know, people that you groups, uh, um, demographics that you don’t think would take advantage of this tool has just come out of nowhere because you gave them those tools. And so it’s just like, ah, man, just seeing the things that blind gamers have done these days. Like, I would consider myself pretty average gamer, but like, I mean, there are, you know, you see these blind Mortal Kombat tournaments, you see, uh, the blind Street Fighter player who won an entire tournament. Um, yeah. Yeah. Like it’s it’s it’s just so cool to see what people are able to accomplish when they’re given the tools and, like, it just gives me chills. Sure.
Steve Saylor:     (0:34:14):
And I love it too, because it like, I sort of had this realization literally, actually kind of the other day. And you kind of reminded me of it was, in a sense, a lot of what accessibility, uh, when we’re consulting on these games do, um, is that, you know, we get to show examples like this is how it can it essentially can work. And oftentimes like I always kind of like I get enamored with like desk setup videos, uh, desktop setup videos on YouTube, like, okay, what like what are they using on their desks? Like, whether what kind of PCs or little gadgets that they have on, on their things or what kind of monitors do they use, like stuff like that. Like I’m always fascinated by it but and I and but I what I love is that because then I can get inspired to be like, oh, I can use that on my desk and make it so much easier. And I think it’s the same with video games, like when people can be able to see the example of here’s how accessibility like can be done and how to and how it improves a game. In a sense, it’s like it can inspire either other consultants or just other like other game developers be like, oh, that we could do that or something similar to that in our game. And then when they do that in their game, then that basically like improves and evolutionize a lot of the work that we did previously, um, which is, which is really cool because that actually leads me into my next question is that, you know, since The Last of Us has come out, it’s been a couple of years now. Um, how have you seen blind accessibility improve? Uh, or like basically change since just within the past couple of years?
Ross Minor:      (0:35:45):
Oh man. Yeah. So um, first I’ll say like, I think because of Last of Us and other games that I’ll mention in a second, like we’ve seen a lot of, uh, like hobby developers develop accessibility mods for games on PC, which I think is really cool. But then in terms of like accessibility, that is built directly into the games. I mean, oh man, there are so many examples and like so many that I’m impressed with that are just like absolute feats of ingenuity, like Forza motorsport, for example. Like I’m a blind person, if they buy like a racing wheel, can literally know what it feels like to to drive a car at high speeds for, you know, for the most part, obviously. But like and just like all the different mechanics that went into that are amazing. And then like God of War Ragnarok like the combat. Mhm. Definitely. Oh man I it’s hard to top combat like that because all the different sound cues like yeah man it’s just I, I can’t give it enough praise for, for the combat in that game. Um yeah. Because like it’s, you know, growing up I would always see my friends play these types of games, um, that I wanted to play. You know, I was kind of, sort of stuck to, like, a very specific genre. It was like Pokemon and like 2D fighting games, like that was it. I wanted to be able to explore. I wanted to be able to fight like different types of enemies and like in a combat environment. And so God of War, definitely Spider-Man two, uh, has definitely exceeded my expectations in many ways. Um, just fully blown screen reader. And I mean, I’ve always loved the haptics in the game and like, I used to play the Spider-Man two game on the PS2 when I could see, it’s like I never thought I’d be able to play a Spider-Man game and like, swing around New York again and and explore. And and so ah I love that. And then I mean I could go go on and on of course, but sure. Yeah. I mean just those, those are definitely like the, the ones that stand out to me. But then of course, huge shout out to indie developers as well, because yeah, we have games like, um, Stories of Blossom, um, uh, Brok the investigator, like all, all these games that um, I think really just goes to show that anyone can make their game accessible. You don’t need a massive budget. Um, it can be done. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, so many, so many good games out there, to be honest.
Steve Saylor:     (0:38:21):
For sure. No, I like and all with different types of genres, uh, to I mean, yeah, because you have like God of War Ragnarok with like it’s action adventure. Same with Spider-Man two then. Yeah.yeah, like Forza with with the racing. Like the like like the accessibility in that is just so dang cool because like, what I love about it is that while I know it was limited and trying to be able to create like to, you know, like there was so much there’s a lot of like, uh, audio noise. It can be and it can be overwhelming for, for anyone that’s jumping into for the first time that doesn’t know how, like simulation, like racing games like that. But what I love about it is that once you kind of fine tune it like you would an actual car. Yeah, you can sort like you can not only like you can not only go like race around a track, no problem, but you can actually be able to compete. And that is yes, you can actually win races by using that and like legitimately without having to use like, like like cheat codes or whatever. Yeah.
Ross Minor:      (0:39:17):
I mean, like going back to, like, blind people competing, you know, like the Mortal Kombat. Street fighter even fought it like we are seeing blind drivers compete toe to toe with sighted drivers.
Steve Saylor:     (0:39:28):
Yes.
Ross Minor:      (0:39:28):
And I think that’s that’s really the incredible thing. And then also touching on like the genres thing, like I my entire life growing up, I’ve always wanted to have the feeling of a being like, hmm, which game do I want to play today and be knowing that? Like, they’re different genres. Like, I never thought I would be able to do that. And so like, it’s almost like having trouble picking the game you want to play. That day is such a fun and good problem to.
Steve Saylor:     (0:40:00):
Have, isn’t it? Instead of being like, okay, these are the only games I can play, it’s now like, what do I want to play? Which is, yeah, oh, I love that feeling so much. And like, that’s the thing too. Like because you also one of the works, a bit of work that you’ve done, uh, it was like you also get to help sort of improve what was already kind of like pretty accessible. Like, I mean, like, of course, you know, Spider-Man two was massively improved by the updates that they, they put out after launch with their screen reader and audio descriptions and all the other ideas that they added in there, but also, like you had a hand in improving what was already great accessibility in Asda’s falls. Yeah, which was so cool because I like I remember playing that and reviewing that when it first came out and I was like, I could see the potential here for like there’s the like there, there’s it’s all it’s so close to being a fully blind, accessible game. And I’m like, this could like they just dedicate a little bit extra effort and, you know, bringing in other blind consultants that are like it can actively work on blind accessibility. It could be so, so good. And what you all did for that was incredible. Like the folks at Interior Night and you were just you did such a great job on that.
Ross Minor:      (0:41:06):
I appreciate it. And like, I just have to say like audio description and video games, I even when last of Us came out and like, I was, you know, starting to dip my toes into gaming accessibility, maybe this is like the pessimist in me, but I never thought that audio descriptions would be embraced as much as yeah, to be honest.
Steve Saylor:     (0:41:30):
Of course.
Ross Minor:      (0:41:31):
Yeah. Like, I always thought they were possible. And I thought that maybe eventually it would happen, but I never thought that it so many.
Steve Saylor:     (0:41:39):
Games.
Ross Minor:      (0:41:39):
Would have it, uh, as soon as this And I think like that’s like really what seals the deal when playing these like story driven games for me, um, is like half of it is being able to play the game, but then also being able to experience the world. And I think that’s where like, I just get sucked into video games and like a big reason I play video games is definitely for escapism. And so like, man, hours fly by if I’m not careful.
Steve Saylor:     (0:42:10):
I know I love that too. Like, like especially when you have like a game where you like because of the accessibility in there, it sort of prolongs your gaming session. Instead of being like, well, you know, I’m struggling, I can’t, you know, I can only play like an hour or two, but like when you can just jump in and be like, I’m playing this for several hours and all of a sudden it’s like 3 a.m. and you’re like, I know, oh, shoot, I should go to bed now.
Ross Minor:      (0:42:29):
I remember when I first discovered audio games, uh, one of the very first audio games I played was called entombed, and it was like a roguelike RPG. I literally skipped school. Like, I took the day off from school and played that I. I’m not even exaggerating. Probably like 24 hours straight because I just had never experienced an accessible game. So yeah, completely agree.
Steve Saylor:     (0:42:52):
So like when you like go into consulting like knowing your experience, you know obviously with audio games and you know, and just your gaming experience in general when you go into a consult, um, like similar to what you, what you did for like Asda’s falls, for example, like when you are hired to consult on a game, what do you what do you generally start with as far as like advice to to the developers?
Ross Minor:      (0:43:16):
Yeah, yeah for sure. So I something I try to beat people over the head with is that in my opinion this is of course, you know, casting a wide net. But I think a great place to start to make a game blind accessible is three categories. And that’s text to speech, like a screen reader, sound cues for specific audio or for specific events in the game, and then navigation assistance. Um, and of course, it’s it all has to be tailored to the game. But in my opinion, that’s the lens I kind of view making a game accessible for blind people. Um, really, you can’t go wrong by starting with that. And, you know, there’s this whole, um, I don’t want to even say like a debate, but I guess you could say that, like, some people are like, oh, a screen reader should be implemented first, or oh, the game should be playable first. Um, I would say that I’m of the opinion that the game should be playable first. Um, okay. Because like, there’s nothing wrong with adding a screen reader first. Don’t get me. Sure. Don’t get me wrong. But like, right, I do think that blind gamers will find a way to play your game. Um, if there’s no screen meter in it, right? Making the game accessible. You know, it’s it requires a lot of creativity. Implementing a screen reader requires a lot of creativity. So if I had to pick one, you make the game accessible first, because historically, over the years, uh, you know, fighting games, they were never meant to, you know, be accessible for blind people. So they never had screen readers in them. Uh, the sound design is what makes them, uh, somewhat playable. And so that’s one of the categories. And then navigation. Well, it doesn’t really matter in most fighting games. And so you’re left with sound design and screen reader for the menus and things like that. Well, blind people would over the years literally create like HTML menu guides just so they can navigate the menus. And I’m not saying like that’s what we should rely on, but I’m saying blind gamers will find a way if they need to. Um, so like that’s generally how I approach it. But like, you know, what a game needs depends on the game, right? Like, you know, you can like let’s say a game has some screen reader elements in it, but like, it doesn’t read everything. It’s like, okay, well, maybe I just need to read this, but like some other things, you know, if you can’t get to it, I would focus on these in game mechanics first. Um, because, you know, I think the biggest thing is scope, right? Like, right. Oh, man. I mean, I used to be guilty of this, too, uh, where it’s just like, why don’t you just implement a screen reader? Like, just do it. Duh.
Steve Saylor:     (0:46:02):
Just do it. Yeah, like we’ve done before. Just do it.
Ross Minor:      (0:46:05):
Or even, like, why? Why not just implement the sound effect like it’s so easy. Duh. And like, I, like, recently, um, over the past year, I have been participating in game jams and like, working on teams to, like, make our games blind accessible. And even then I’m just like, oh wow. Like, this is a lot harder to do than you would think. Because like in video games, like, things aren’t always separated. Like sounds aren’t just sounds, uh, mechanics aren’t just mechanics, etc. they’re all tied together. They all work together to, to form this game. And so it’s like if you edit one thing, it’s, it’s very much going to impact many other things programmatically that you may not expect at all. And so that’s why I kind of try to keep in mind and try to be like, realistic and keep it feasible, because you can iterate upon it like we’ve seen that with lots of us. We’ve seen that with Spider-Man games. Um, so many games, there’s always next game. Um, and I know people who want the game now I want to play. Now I get that. But it’s like, think about screen readers. Like they like like just for using windows, right? Like they weren’t just perfect right away. They’re always being iterated upon and like, that’s that’s the nature of accessibility. And I mean, that’s the nature of design in general, you know? So I think game accessibility is just catching up to everything. All the game design lessons developers have learned over the years already.
Steve Saylor:     (0:47:34):
Yes, I 100% agree. Uh, because yeah, like I was in the same boat too. Like I just thought, oh yeah, just just throw in a screen reader, like, or, you know, just record all the lines or every single bit of text, uh, and like, and, but we, we’re still at a point where each game that has, uh, like a screen reader, it’s a very custom slash bespoke version of, of and a lot of it is just a hack together way to be able to make it work. Like there’s so much that goes behind the scenes just to be able to make that where like even like an example, like, I don’t know if you if you knew this or you found out about this, but what the way that The Last of Us does it, it’s not like a, like a, like an API that just reads the text as it sort of comes up. They’re all audio files. Like it literally is just they recorded and a voice like of generated like voice to read the text. And they just record it all and put it up as audio files, and it plays whenever text comes up.
Ross Minor:      (0:48:30):
Yeah, I and it’s so funny because, uh, the game that my game jam team and I are working on right now, uh, you know, like game jams, uh, you’re on a time crunch. There’s a time limit you have to submit at a certain time. And so, like, we’re all talking and we’re just like, how are we going to implement a screen meter and within the engine that we’re using. And it didn’t take long to figure out we’re just going to have to record these individual scenes because it was the quickest, quick and dirty way to.
Steve Saylor:     (0:49:00):
Get it done.
Ross Minor:      (0:49:01):
Yeah, yeah, I know.
Steve Saylor:     (0:49:03):
Because it’s like until we get to the point where, you know, video game engines are able to be incorporated with a screen reader, which is still very hard to do. It’s it’s coming soon for sure. Yeah. And we’re getting to that. We’re getting to that point. But that’s the thing. It’s like it’s still like it like it’s still hard to be able to do. Doesn’t mean we like we’re saying don’t do it, but it’s more of we understand that, okay. Yeah, it’s going to take some time. And we just got to be a little bit patient with it. Uh, in order for like, like, like because it is it is happening more and more games are starting to incorporate that as part of their, uh, either their engine design or just design process. But I like what you said about making a game like, okay, if as long as it’s playable. Uh, yeah. First, because a lot like. Yes. Okay. Sure. Having a screenwriter being able to be built into the engine is something that you start with right away. If that’s something that you’re wanting to be able to do, and you’re building that engine for the game that you’re building. But if you’re using if for, you know, for resources purposes, you have like, okay, you know what? We’re going to use the, let’s say the Unreal Engine. And it doesn’t have a screen reader built in or something like that. Um, you want you still want to be able to make sure that the game is playable, like first and then because that’s something you can build a build off of, and the rest of the systems can essentially can kind of be added in a little bit later in the process. But a lot of that design, uh, considerations, it’s better to be done during that, like that sort of game design process and like it’s being able to like incorporate accessibility overall makes it a lot easier to be able to edit later on. Um, so I agree with you. Yeah, like like starting off with making a game playable first because then because that’s where the real fun is. It’s like, you know, you can have like, you can have a great screen reader in a game, but if the game’s not fun. Yeah. What’s the point?
Ross Minor:      (0:50:46):
Yeah. Like to me, like, it’s kind of like the difference between this is theoretically accessible versus like this is tangibly playable. Sure. Yeah. And like I think yeah, we’ve seen that over the past few years with a lot of games that didn’t have a screen reader, but you still had blind people playing them and completing them. And like, you know, occasionally they need a little bit of sighted assistance. But like the majority, they they had a taste of the game. They were able to feel what it felt like to play that game. And I mean, to me, that just makes their voices louder and makes them want to reach out to developers more and be like, please make this more accessible. And, you know, developers here, they may not be able to respond all the time, but they hear it and yeah.
Steve Saylor:     (0:51:28):
Yeah, no for sure. So we kind of talked a little bit like obviously about the past and kind of what we, what we’re seeing currently. But um, from, from your perspective, like where do you see, uh, like this, like blind accessibility evolving in the future?
Ross Minor:      (0:51:43):
Oh, man. Ah. So okay, so first I do think audio description is just going to continuously expand into video games. Um mhm. I think it’s just natural kind of given its progression I think um, I have a lot of wishes as well. Um, my biggest wish and of course my biggest wish would be to consult on a game like this is to make an open world game accessible.
Steve Saylor:     (0:52:09):
Because yes.
Ross Minor:      (0:52:10):
This I think so many like okay, open world like that’s it’s the new hot genre right now. Like everyone wants everything to be open world. But I think it especially rings true for blind people because blind people in the real world, they they can, but they can’t technically just get up and go somewhere. They have to plan it. They have to meticulously know their surroundings and like that. That’s the same thing in a video game. But what if that wasn’t the case in a video game? And this is why escapism is so huge? Because like, to have the feeling where you can just log into an open world and just explore that go anywhere thing. Yeah, like that’s the biggest thing that, in my opinion, blind gamers want. I don’t speak for blind gamers, but I hear all the time, um, to just be able to explore and find your way to that area without, like, your hand being held, without you being forced to go there. Just. Yeah. If I could just say one thing would be to explore. Um, yeah. And so audio description exploration. Uh, and then of course, you know, like more robust TTS, uh, better combat. Like, I think those will, will come with just iterations of new games. Yeah. Um, I would love to see a battle royale type game become accessible. Um, like, if I could play Fortnite one day, if I can, if I can be tossed from avatar wielding a gun, that would be amazing.
Steve Saylor:     (0:53:40):
I hear you on that one. It’s it’s close. It’s not like there’s a lot of accessibility in there. But yeah, it’s getting there. And I think that hopefully they could add more to it, that’s for sure.
Ross Minor:      (0:53:49):
I definitely yeah I definitely I think it’s just a matter of time. Um, and then VR, uh, you know, like, you know, I was on a panel about it. I definitely think it’s coming. I think there’s so much potential for, uh, blind accessibility in VR games. I do think that it is a different approach than traditional gaming in my opinion. Um, yeah, not for better or not for worse. I just, I think it’s different. And so I’m really, you know, I, I, you know, I consulted on Kazmunaigas High and I’d love to continue consulting for VR games because I do think that there’s a ton of potential there because, you know, I keep saying it, but like escapism is the biggest reason that I play video games and socialization. And I think VR lends itself very well to that.
Steve Saylor:     (0:54:36):
Yeah, I agree with you actually. Funny enough, I also did work, uh, work on Kazmunaigas High too, and yeah, yeah, I was like, when I saw your name, I was listening to one of the consultant. I’m like, yeah, yeah, we did it. Um, but it was like. Like even with games like that, because, like, I love VR as well. Uh, because like one of like. Yeah, it’s similar to you, like, with your content creation. Like one of the videos that went viral for me at the beginning was playing VR for the first time. Oh, wow. And what I really gravitate towards a lot was with VR was because, you know, a lot of times we’re playing video games a lot like sound is coming at you. It’s like you can sort of when you’re wearing headphones, you can kind of sort of figure out like stereo sound, and that can sort of work. But with VR, because you’re placed essentially in a like three dimensional space and you can actually move your head and move your body to the point towards where there something that’s making a sound or towards the where you need to be able to go. It basically like you would think, like it sounds silly to be like, oh, VR like could actually be really accessible to blind players, but in reality it’s like actually it’s like one of the coolest things for blind players.
Ross Minor:      (0:55:40):
That is literally like one of the biggest points I brought up in my panel at South By was that you wouldn’t think it, but it. I mean, it’s in the name virtual reality. And so if you are blind and you’re given all the tools you need in this game, you’re it’s so much more intuitive because as a blind person, you’ll be able to like, hear and orient yourself similar to how you would in the real world. Obviously, like a few caveats in terms of like touching physical things, sure. But like in terms of like hearing where things are verticality to sound or hearing if it’s behind you, like, that’s that’s huge. And um, yeah, I do think like that is kind of like the hard points about, uh, you know, traditional gaming is like sound design has, has come so, so far. Um, but in terms of like being to like, aim at something up or down like that. Yeah. That still is difficult to do.
Steve Saylor:     (0:56:36):
Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s getting there. But we’re, we’re still a bit of a, we need a few more iterations for that to, to be more, uh, more customizable for sure. So, um, um, well, okay. Well, look, again, looking into the future, um, obviously, you know, companies are like, are looking into accessibility, especially blind accessibility. And they’re experimenting with certain things. What what potential pitfalls would you like to see companies avoid when advancing blind accessibility?
Ross Minor:      (0:57:04):
Yeah. Um, so I would say mainly just hand holding. Um, and since that, I would love more developers to give blind players that agency, um, in times where they may not have that agency in real life. Uh, because I think that’s the beauty of video games. And but I also do think that out of all the disabilities, giving that agency to blind people is the hardest. Um, sure. Like, yeah. Not to discourage anyone. Like, we already have examples that it can be done, but, um, yeah, I think it’ll take a lot of iterations to get that down. And like, like I said about the exploration, um, I think there may be games that will, you know, kind of do what’s been done and kind of just like point you in the direction of the objective. Um, but that, that that’s kind of really it and like, just guide you right there and that, that takes away from the experience a little bit. Um, yeah. Not from the overall experience of being able to play the game, of course, but like just from navigating. Um, and so I think that is the biggest one. Um, I would also love to see more types of, uh, dynamic descriptions, not audio descriptions, but like through TTS, in the sense that in the overworld, like not a cutscene, but like like if I’m playing a game, I want to know if I’m walking over a bridge. I want to know if. Okay. Yeah. Like, I want to know if I’m if I’m flying through the air. I want to know if I’m flying over mountaintops or things like that. You know, like, I think that really helps paint a picture of the world and, um, a more subtle and detailed way. Um, okay. Yeah. I mean, that’s just we’ve seen a lot of audio games do that already, and so I would love to see that, um, take place more in video games, but I’m trying to think of, like, any other pitfalls. Um, I mean, not really. I mean, just like the trajectory of line accessibility is, is so good. We we’ve already seen some really incredible screen readers in video games like Forza Diablo. Like those screen readers are just top notch. And oh, and Mortal Kombat, like, these are just, just really, really good screen readers that had the customization. Um, yeah. That’s a huge part about screen readers. Um, to customize them to your preferences. And sure. So I think we’re we’re honestly already on a good track, and I’m really excited to see what developers have cooking for the next few years, because I would imagine that, like some of the things I’m speaking of, they may already be doing, and I just have no idea, you know? No, that’s that’s it.
Steve Saylor:     (1:00:01):
I mean, of course, like, there’s a ton of games that, you know, people are being worked on. It’s like, you know, hey, maybe someday. But I like what you said about regards to to to player agency as well, especially when it comes to your example of wanting to have open world games, because yeah, you could build like right now certain open world games are able to like lead you down the golden path, like they’re able to get you from point A to point B in regards to the story and keeping you going into the game. But when it comes, like when giving the player agency is allowing the player to, It’s okay to go off the golden path for a bit, and because the game will allow you to do that, but then it will also eventually lead you back to the golden path, uh, when you want to, um.
Ross Minor:      (1:00:43):
Like, I want to get lost in a game. Yeah. Like I want to get lost in the world you made and lost.
Steve Saylor:     (1:00:48):
Not in a way of like, I don’t know where to go, but, like, lost has been, like, I spent hours in this region, and I didn’t do nothing for the story.
Ross Minor:      (1:00:55):
Exactly, but it was still a ton of fun. Yeah. And I think some we’ve already seen developers chip away at that. So like in God of War, um, I believe there is a way to like, track a specific objective. Um, mhm. But in Spider-Man two like it, it’s fully there. So yes, I have the confidence that if I see something on on the overworld map and I click on it, that I will be led there. And I think that is again, like just huge progress. Like, yeah, like you’re I don’t want to I don’t even want to say you’re on a golden path, because I think half the issue with this golden path analogy is that you don’t get to pick. Um, but I am picking. Yeah. Now, you know, I am picking and like, that’s that’s amazing. Um, and even in Diablo, like, uh, this is kind of like, by design, the game is meant to be open world. And so, like, I don’t have to follow where they want me to go. And so like, I think like if novices came to Diablo four as well, um, that would be all.
Steve Saylor:     (1:02:03):
That’d be great.
Ross Minor:      (1:02:04):
Oh, I know I would. Oh my God.
Steve Saylor:     (1:02:06):
I’ve had conversations with drew over it. over at Blizzard being like, man, if this had not exist, it would be so, so good.
Ross Minor:      (1:02:13):
I would sink so many hours into.
Steve Saylor:     (1:02:15):
The ability to, oh, like, I just keep playing this season. So yeah, hey, if those are Blizzard or if they’re if they’re listening slash watching, please, please just please we’d love to have that happen for sure. Um, but yes.
Ross Minor:      (1:02:29):
Sorry, sorry. I just want to say because especially because Diablo is like a live service game. So like it’s going to be around for a while, so sure.
Steve Saylor:     (1:02:34):
Anyway, yeah I love like yeah, especially with the seasons that they’ve built. They’re so good. It’s like I want to jump in. But I’m also like, man, it just like it just so helps to be able to know like like where best to be able to go and how just to, you know, get around the dungeon and stuff like that. Um, man, that’d be great. But yeah, I think you said it right. Like being able to like, yeah, there’s a golden path, I guess, in regards to like following along with the main storyline. And that’s something that, you know, games try to be able to, uh, to get you to do. But you’re right, like being able to like Golden Path should be the path that you want to be able to choose. Like whether you want to be like, okay, yeah, you go for a story for point A to point C, but then between point C and D, you can go off into point like, like like 2 or 3 and, you know, go off on these side tracks and it just enhances the game even better. And, and there’s even like some side quests that essentially can, you know, like let you kind of be like a part of Spider-Man’s world, like even just using that as an example, like when you’re, you know, talking to Hayley or, you know, you’re saving that museum, that musical museum, and it’s like, that’s just like makes you a part of the neighborhood that you’re defending, that you’re fighting. Yeah. Like for like when you’re trying to build, protect, protect it from. And so yeah, I think you’re right. It’s like being able to have that kind of like let us create our own golden path is something that I hope that, uh, that the studios will be able to, uh, look into. And, you know, speaking of, of game developers and what we love to have them look into, what do you what would you what what must game developers really understand, in your opinion, to ensure that, uh, their games are inclusive to, uh, those who are blind and just want to play games. I know we kind of touched on it pretty much a little bit, but what sort of encouragement or advice that you would give them, that of those who might be listening or watching right now?
Ross Minor:      (1:04:18):
Yeah. So I would say accessibility in general is not a list of check boxes. Um, every game is different. Every game has different mechanics. And so you have to get creative with it and you have to know how these accessibility features will best interface with the design of your game. Um, some games or some people or some games, you know, have accessibility, like a bunch of accessibility features in the options menu, which is great. But then other games try to lean toward being accessible by design, just in general, so you don’t have to like, tweak all these settings. And like in my opinion, neither are bad approaches. Um, but you got to know how to do stuff like that. And then do not assume that you know what a community wants, even if there are already examples like do not look at, um, you know, lots of us, God of War, Spider-Man, Forza and say, okay, we’ll just copy that and and it’ll be great. It’ll be accessible, it may be accessible, but it may like I said, it may not translate as well to your game. And so this is like where really just getting feedback from the community will just go. So go so far because like we said, disabled people are experts in their own disability with their lived experience. We can’t say that enough. Really? Yeah. Um, And they will they will come up with some truly incredible ideas that that you may not have thought of and other blind people may not have thought of. And so that’s why it’s also important, um, to, you know, try not to find like your token blind person or any disability. Like a lot of these tips are just for any disability. Like sure do not think that just because one blind person says this that that’s what all blind people think. Um, because how do I describe this? It’s not really. It’s not that, like, if you get an idea from one blind person, doesn’t mean their idea is bad at all. And their idea may work. Um, but like getting ideas from multiple sources, it’s like you can kind of mush them all together and, like, create just comes down to just working together. Yeah, just goes a long way. Uh, and being and being creative, um, I found just while consulting on games, while creating my own games there just. Yeah, there are just so many things that no one person is going to think of. Like, I, I’ve had so many times where like, even a, like an able bodied person is like, oh, why don’t we do this? And I was like, that is so smart. I did not think of that, you know?
Steve Saylor:     (1:07:03):
So yeah, that’s for sure.
Ross Minor:      (1:07:05):
Yeah. Just get inspiration from everyone. Really.
Steve Saylor:     (1:07:08):
Yeah. And I think you’re right. It’s being able to like, yeah, you can just copy like a bunch of things that like from other games uh, in and of itself. But yeah, but like but those settings may not be like the right idea for your game. Uh, yeah. Because like, every game tries to be different and it may like, even though there are certain similarities of each of those games that you mentioned, um, that are, you know, kind of sim like, kind of considered sort of universal when it comes to sort of blind accessibility. But for sure, um, it may some of those things may not be relevant or be the best decision for your game. So that’s why you have folks like like us or just, you know, other blind players to basically to kind of and more blind players to kind of fill that pool of, of different ideas. And, you know, again, kind of what we talked about before in that, you know, certain things can inspire other things and, and that and, you know, an idea can come from somewhere that you may not have thought of. That essentially was a combination of like 2 or 3 or 5 or 10 other different ideas from from other blind players. That just makes your game better. Um, because of that. And that’s the thing about accessibility and like, not just, again, as you said, like not just for blind accessibility, but just kind of overall, uh, accessibility is that accessibility just makes games better. Like, it doesn’t hinder anything. It doesn’t change anyone’s vision. It just makes games better, uh, for everybody. So through and.
Ross Minor:      (1:08:31):
Through. And I would just encourage developers to, to think big. Um, because I think it can be difficult, no matter who you are, developer, accessibility professional to uh, be intimidated or just be like, oh, wow, this is a really daunting process. And, uh, I don’t know if we’ll be able to do this, but even I’m just like the implementation of some accessibility features I’m just blown away with, like, even I was like when Forza was announced, I was like, I don’t like, how accessible is this actually going to be? Uh, how did they pull this off? Like not saying that it couldn’t be, but I was almost a little dubious and I, I was like, oh, wow, this is incredible. Or like, same with audio descriptions. Uh, I was like, how are they going to like, seamlessly, you know, flow from like cutscene to gameplay and describe and like time all of that. Right. But like it can be done. You just got to think outside the box and, uh, yeah, that’s all I’ll say. Think outside the box. Get creative with it. Give yourself time to, um, like I like I said before, you know, people want it now, want it now. But I would say I would rather developers take the time to get an accessibility feature right than just kind of haphazardly push one out. Um, and we’ve seen that with some games where like, uh, you know, the accessibility has been, uh, quote unquote delayed, if you want to call it that. But at the end of the day, it results in a much, much better experience.
Steve Saylor:     (1:10:13):
So yeah. No. Totally agree. Uh, all right. And the last question I kind of have is that, um, what are like some resources that, uh, players and developers can visit to get connected to other blind gamers in the community and, uh, how they can find, uh, more games that they can be able to play.
Speaker S4:       (1:10:31):
Yeah.
Ross Minor:      (1:10:32):
So, um, first I want to ask, when is this going up? Because there’s something I’m not 100% sure.
Steve Saylor:     (1:10:40):
Uh, but it’s it’s kind of like one of those, like, this is sort of like a for a general audience being like, hey, you can listen to it whenever.
Speaker S4:       (1:10:46):
Okay.
Ross Minor:      (1:10:47):
So something I’m really passionate about is consolidation of information, uh, with game accessibility and especially blind accessibility. There is information everywhere for developers or for blind gamers, and it’s very scattered and it’s very hard to find. And so oftentimes I get people messaged me saying, how do you play Animal Crossing? How do you play Mortal Kombat? How do you play X, y, Z? And so a project I’m working on right now, I’m hopefully going to have a prototype ready by the 16th. Uh, Is the game accessibility or the Accessible Gaming Wiki, where it’s a community driven website that anyone? Uh, I’ll say approved submitters for now. But, you know, eventually anyone can contribute to just like Wikipedia, but it’s entirely based on game accessibility. So whether it be developer resources, whether it be text tutorials and menu guides like all this information can be consolidated into one place. That is the goal. Because I think that would go a really, really long way. And like just you just have like a master website of just that branches out to all these great work that people are doing. I think that would really, uh.
Just.
Kind of help progress. But until that comes out, whenever it does, um, for blind gamers, um, I mean, there’s so many so there is audio games.net, um, and it’s a good resource, but I think like the website itself is like a bit old, I honestly don’t it is a bit old.
Steve Saylor:       (1:12:28):
Yeah.
Ross Minor:      (1:12:29):
Yeah. Like, I don’t know, like how much longer it’s going to be around like like things are kind of sometimes breaking on it and just things like that. But then Reddit is a good place. Um, so I moderate and kind of run the disabled Gamers subreddit. Um, I’ve been thinking about doing a Blind Gamers subreddit. Um, so, you know, if I announce that, stay tuned for that. But then finally, um, social media is is a great one. Um, because if you search hashtags like blind, blind gamer, blind gaming, um, just type these things into social media, into YouTube, into Google. Because if you don’t do that, you fall into the same trap that I did growing up is that I never thought it was possible, so I didn’t even bother looking it up. Um, and so just constantly be on the lookout, like, follow, uh, figureheads just follow, you know, content creators and then follow your average blind gamer because you will you will find so much information that’s that’s linked. But again, that’s that’s the whole reason why I’m wanting to create this wiki, because so many great resources are posted to social media that are lost to the abyss. There are so many.
Game accessibility discords. Um, but that information can’t be found on the web. And so it’s just hopefully yeah, I can have this wiki up and running within the next couple of weeks. You know, I already have like the main infrastructure and everything set up. It’s just setting up the pages. But um, yeah, I can just totally see that expanding into this, just this, this massive resource because I think, you know, information knowledge is power, you know, cliche, whatever you want to call it. But yeah, it’s the truth.
Steve Saylor:     (1:14:10):
No, for sure. I definitely agree with you on that one. Uh, 100%. And, uh, and so, uh, I will say this and kind of leaning into, you know, my last question is that, uh, funny enough, you actually, you’re like, the social media has been a resource that has brought up before, even on this podcast. So you’re definitely, uh, are like a plus one for that for, uh, as well. But, you know, even for, for your projects and for anything else that, uh, that, that you’re doing, I would recommend folks, you know, uh, follow Ross, uh, specifically and you can find out, uh, where those resources are. But, uh, for those who want to be able to follow you, Ross, where can people follow you online?
Ross Minor:      (1:14:46):
So all of my social media handles are generally some iteration of Ross Minor, but I keep it nice and simple. Uh, I have a website just Ross minor.com, and so you can find all about me there. All the things I’ve worked on, but specifically Ross minor.com/links. All of my social media is right there in one place TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Mastodon, everything. And so you can kind of keep up with all relevant, uh, things on that page as well. But, uh, yeah. So just Ross minor.com/links.
Steve Saylor:     (1:15:15):
Perfect. Awesome. Well, thanks so much Ross for for joining me today. It’s an amazing conversation. And and thank you all so much for watching or listening. And if you have any questions, you can contact either myself, Ross or the folks at Player Research. And if you want to learn, like to learn more about what we talked about today, uh, and check out the rest of the series on advancing accessibility. Uh, you can be able to check that out at Player research.com. Thanks again and have a great day and we’ll play some games.

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